i need juicy debate!!

dont tempt me lili :)

Respect

GIASI

Good One Super 7...Let me add a wonderful letter published in the Local Press of Saudi Arabia ( A Thoughtful one indeed)..

Lili are u similar to this crowd??When your sink doesn't work you blame the Americans for it??

http://www.arabnews....

Out of Ideas? Then Curse the West
Abdul Rahman Al-Habib • Al-Watan

Criticism is good when it is constructive. The problem is when criticism decays into harping. All too often, useless criticism becomes an impulsive habit.

Arab writers and columnists have a tendency to affirm populist notions, whether they’re good, bad, factual or false. They write what people want to hear. They write not to educate or challenge the readers’ notions, but rather to affirm the readers’ pre-conceived opinions and views. These types of character-driven, pandering scribes care only about elevating themselves and winning the sympathy of their fans.

For a writer, is there anything easier than serving up paragraphs of emotion-driven rhetoric? Is there anything easier than repeating platitudes and re-hashing clichéd ideas?

If a columnist runs out of ideas, there’s always one ace in the deck, one thing that is bound to get a cheer from the choir. It’s almost too easy. Out of ideas for the day? Simply write an article cursing the United States of America! That’s an easy way to earn a day’s pay.

Never mind entering the difficult path of hard research and analysis of problems in our society, or in their society, or problems shared by both societies. Forget about it. It’s too easy to toss out some hackneyed diatribe against America.

Unfortunately, writers who do not fall into the trap of cheap shots and one-trick ponies, writers who practice disciplined criticisms about topics closer to home, end up being drowned out.

The problem here is a lack of understanding about the process of criticism. Our society is one that lacks dialogue and rejects the mere concept of criticism. There is a severe lack of understanding behind criticism as an application. In our society, criticism is a synonym for defamation.

As a result, many columnists resort to criticism as a form of attack, against each other, against the West, against America. It is rare when we find a thoughtful attempt at understanding others and their views that come, just as ours do, from their cultural, political and social backgrounds.

Oddly enough, some of the megalomaniacs with word processors often ask for thoughtful opinions on their work from their colleagues. Yet they do not make any effort to come up with constructive criticism to return the favor.

Indeed, some writers strive to be objective. They attempt to give up self-aggrandizement and do a little critical thinking. But all too often even they end up blaming their subject (i.e., the West, America, other writers) for lacking adequate understanding. They might also confess that the problem with “them� is that “we� haven’t adequately illustrated our goodness.

But then when something tragic happens, such as an act of terrorism against the West that is committed by one of our children, our “critics� end up falling back into the trap of painting complex conspiracy theories that depict us as the victims.

When we, Arabs and Muslims, ask ourselves why we are behind in development, the answer is always satisfactory: because of the West and its agents, of course! And when we ask ourselves why the West is developed and advanced, the answer is always satisfactory: because the West stole the sciences of our ancestors and they are still plundering us to advance themselves!

Can you find prettier, more populist answers than this?

We should be addressing the real issue. thats, why are the US/UK there in the first place?
Certainly wasnt WMD's. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. yes he was a crackpot dictator but there are so many more like him who are often supported by the west. So tell me, why are they there?

Respect

GIASI

Well in finance we refer to money that has already been spent as a sunk cost. Sunk costs should play no part in decision making as they are "sunk". The US and the UK are there.

The topic that I chose to bring up for debate was whether the fight for liberation should be against the US/UK who would leave the second everyone stopped fighting.

If you want to discuss your topic then go ahead but it is not an answer to mine. Remember GIASI no marks for not answering the essay question but just writing what you want to talk about

GIASI

Well said,

Respect

Angelo

didn't the british, the french fight the Nazi invasion?
Isn't it the right of "ANY" people to choose its own destiny rather than seeing a bunch of thieves storming their country for its wealth and expect them to believ they're here to free you?

The whole world warned the US of the mess that would arise in case they invaded Iraq but Bush, in a brave step to follow prophcecies he received from above his empty head decided to do it anyaway. An author once said "One million people cannot be wrong".How about 5 billion?

another tunisisan thinker once told his french colonialist superiors "You cannot go from wealth to freedom but you can go from freedom to wealth". Freedom has no price.

And please, open up your eyes and tell me how could you possibly believe in the freedom of the Iraqis when they were better off under Saddam (who was already the worse thing that could happen to them). To free Iraq???? What about invading a sovereign country under the excuse of searching for weapons of mass destruction that no one found before or after the invasion?
What about the Israeli atomic bomb and its occupation of Palestinian soil and the massacre of its inhabitants???
What about bombing Fallujah with chemical weapons to the point its inhabitants were found calcinated in their own homes?
What about Abu Ghraib?
What about the stealing of oil and the protection of oil fields when there's no one to protect the civilians?
What about the civilians killed by yakee soldiers because they were driving too fast or too slow?
What about the italian journalist who got ambsuhed by US soldiers and whose bodyguard got killed (RIP)?!

This is a new era of colonialism. In the 19th century european countries invaded Asia, Africa and other parts of the world to bring what was called "civilisation"... we all know it was not the case but rather, natural ressources were the reason.

Oh what a coincidence! Now the US is invading countries to bring democracy but is occupying a country and stealing its oil rnatural resources!

If Bush, Bair and Berlusconi were really about freedom and democracy please tell me who stole the 2001 US presidential election? Who tied up the medias and named unpatriotic and marginalising anyone who disagreed (psst I got a hint his first name is George)? Who lied and changed secret services reports and destroyed documents proving there were no grounds to invade Iraq (Blair)? Who is going form one corruption scandal to the other ever since he became a public figure (Berluscaoni)? And these people are to be trusted with the future of a whole country? Please!

If Saddam was brought to court (I just wish it was a real one with real credibility so the sentence would make sense) then bush and blair and berlusconi shouold too.

They blame Saddam for using chemical weapons? Bush did the same thing in this invasion? Hell his father did the same thing during the first gulf war (remember the depleted uranium bombings????). The kiling of innocent people? ... Please don't make it too easy for me. I just don't know where to start.

"Build their country" what a noble plan. Again, weallth always came after freedom. And with what money? Iraq is the second largest oil reserve in the world but yet Iraqis don't even have enough gas for their cars.

I wonder what you call a terrorist. If you fight for your freedom and die, I don't there's nothing more honorable that that. And I doubt that the Iraqi rebellion is dumb nough to bomb their own fellow citizens. When a crime is committed you should ask yourself "who will it benefit the most?".......bombing civilians: that will discredit the rebellion and make the US UK stay legitimate. Bombing mosques (shiites against sunnis) will only lead to civil war and thus make the US UK invasion even more legitimate. Abducting foreigners: that would benefit both. But until now each fex hostage said they were treated well and were never abused. But if we look at what the americans and the british did to the Iraqi prisonners one would wonder if it is not better to get abducted by the guerilla thna by the freedom coalition.

Giasi, thank you. I was going to talk about the Israel problem but you did better than I would have.

Fat Clemenza

Fat clemenza I think you are missing the point. Try to put your rage about the invasion behind you and consider only the future.

Answer just one question which is " Do you think it would be better for the people of Iraq if the insurgency stopped?"

Clearly Iraq would be a rich and prosperous country if the fighting ceased. If you are suggesting that to stop fighting and live peacefully would give legitamacy to the US/UK invasion and that that is a bad thing then the expression I would have to use is "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

The fact is, and I think every reasonable person believes this, that if there was no insurgency and "resistance" then the US would have far less influence than it does now.

Policitally it is not good for the US to be in Iraq but they are forced to stay in such numbers because of the insurgency. Their leaving would create a power vacuum and even more problems.

Stop "resisting" and things would be a lot better for everyone living in Iraq.

guys,

Irak has very grave problems, but the presence of US/UK/Italy makes matters worse.
You cannot force democracy into a country. I personally think that democracy will never work in the ME, at least for the next few decades. What these people need is a strong, honest, down to earth leader.

USA, Uk etc are not goodies trying to restore order. When, and if, they leave, violence and sectarian crisis will continue. Maybe they will end up killing eachother for years to come, maybe they will work together to rise a prosperous country. That´s up to the people of Irak, not to Bush and co.

Super 7, you say that politically it does not beneficiate USA to stay in Irak and I couldn´t disagree more with you. Bush admin is nothing but a war economy and war politics. American presence in Irak is indeed very positive for his administration, and for as long as the lies about bringing peace and democracy to Irak are sold to american people,it does not harm his popularity.

Giasi, Fat, why is that in this area every single problem and killing is blamed on Israel? Please move on.

Butterfly of course they are trying to restore order. Don't start about whether or not they are there is correct. The fact is they are there and to suggest they are not trying to restore order is ridiculous

I can't be bothered to read all that sorry. Read a couple of excerpts and you missed the point in those. Anyway keep resisting the "occupation" and good luck to you.

Thanx butterfly glad to be back!
guys, friends,loved ones...glad to hear from all of u all at once....
Fat clemenza.....WELCOME!!!
i'm speachless and i agree with all of u whole heartedly.....i couldn't have said it better my self.......except i regret to say..helloqatar and suuper7(as always)

Thanx super for starting this one...i don't know what drives me more nuts your stubbornness(sp??) in the face of fact and persistance or that alien u have posted as u'r picture!
I'll answer your question with a no!
People can't stop resisting because unlike u they have no faith what so ever that the US wants to leave....and the reason for them being in Iraq is important 'cause it's the reason for the resistance...remove the cause and their will be no insurgency..let's not play the chicken and egg game....We were all around when cowboy G.W.B decided to shoot his way into Iraq as part of his "war on terror" to "free the Iraqi's and bring democracy from the land of "democracy"....If it was so right then why did the Iraq's resist??

People who have the luxury of being safe in their home with their feet up watching the news and sipping god knows what can easily talk about complience...........Give me an example of a people that sat back and just waited for their invaders to pack up and leave.

helloqatar...i didn't understand that bit about the bombings in Egypt...kindly explain..

tg1234......i read the letter and i'm not one of those people who blame others for their bad fortune......i take full resposibility for my actions and i believe we as arabs and as muslims should too.........but u must agree that the US has its hands in alot of cookie jars.........they set themselves up to be blamed.
that's what meddling gets you......And the Kuwuiti issue was an arab affair and it was wrong to involve the US.
What was that about Russian children???
U must have misunderstood fat and GIASI....i'm positive that's not what they ment.....And I'm sure most arabs know that their leaders aren't that great........read the arab newspapers and u'll see.
.lili.

...What I mean from the above..is ..with the help of the local police and the authorities he will be on his first flight back home..(This happened in the land of the Pure..Saudi Arabia)

...By the way If that Same White face does the same thing in developing India..he would be living in Jail for ever..As a group of Brits did when they tried gun-running...Purulia Arms drop...Havn't heard of it..Google and check...

tg1234 you seem to be a good honest racist with a massive chip on your shoulder.

BTW it might not have been the man with the white face's fault. I can't believe the carefree manner in which everyone crosses the road here. It is almost as if they actually believe in fate ;)

Also it is not for nothing that Qatar is soon going to have a place in the Guinnes book of records as having the most dangerous roads in the world

Saudi Arabia - land of the pure. That is among the funniest things I have ever heard

...Actually if Arabs are truely united..The Americans will simply suck it up and state to state relations will be the only thing happening...Its not too far when GW Bush said sorry several number of times when an American plane landed at Hunan Island in China...

My point above is simple..the Americans are only exploiting local weaknesses...If Some one thinks money alone is a sign of strength..its as obvious as daylight that its not..probably the trust in own people is...If the biggest strength of the middle east...its people...are not considered a source of threat..but a source of strength...things will change dramatically..I guess democracy is coming in its own halting way...and change will be for everyone to see...

It was long ago before Gulf War 2..that Turkish Parliament refused American bases ..despite a fee of $ 25 Billion offered to them as landing rights...what did the Americans did?? Sucked it up and moved on...

Tg1234,
Please tell me you’re joking. You can’t possibly believe the things you typed.

Hamas: elected government in free and internationally monitored elections. They won. That’s democracy right? The people deciding for its future. That’s what the US and the UK invaded Iraq for, right?
You withdraw necessary aid because people you don’t like came to power? You know what we call that??? Black mailing if not bribery and thus corruption.
Wonderful values that I completely despise. But if the US wants to withdraw their aid, which they already did, that would only prove what people like me think: They ain’t about democracy; they’re about maintaining puppet governments who will serve their interests.

I was reading an article about Hamas officials who declared that their ministers will only be paid 1500 dollars a month. Do you know many governments who would do that? The Fatah Party became famous for its corruption and its members became millionaires thanks to their membership card. For instance, the apartheid wall that is dividing even further Palestinian soil is being built by with concrete bought from a company owned by who? Mr Al Qorei, the former Palestinian PM.

I don’t know what you call that, but I call it pure dedication to the people. And maybe that’s what America is afraid of.
Let’s say the Palestinian government does collapse, that will only make them even more legitimate in the eyes of their people and give even more discredit to the US and the EU.
But they can keep their money if its purpose is to deprive the people from its right to self determination. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other countries have already engaged in supporting them and Condoleeza Rice failed to have their agreement to isolate Hamas.
Cutting financial aid like Israel, the US and the EU are doing is collective punishment and that’s exactly what bombers do when they blow themselves up in civilian crowds.

America invited??? By who? By themselves I guess.

SO you do admit they’re exploiting weaknesses, which means American intentions are not so noble. You know what history has taught us tg1234? Those who forget the past are bound to live it again. America’s foreign policy will lead it to its own destruction. America is only planting the seeds of hatred in the hearts of the people they’re oppressing and give them more reasons to want its destruction. That’s what happened to the Nazis, the Soviet Union, pre WWII Japan, Iran's Shah...

I hope you'll be able to be mercifyl towards yourself and look to the world with humble eyes. I sincerely do. Good night.

Big Fat Clemenza

Fat I am disappointed with your line on Have mercy on myself..When I write these remarks..I dont move a muscle..Its just an academic debate of throwing in ideas..and others counter arguing it...

I have seen enough of these sterile debates about butcher sharon and stupid bush...Please attack the idea..not the person...If the whole debate is about doubting the intention of the person and not focused on idea..I would rather keep my counsel to myself...

Its not worth it..

Lets back up and ask the right question, who is killing who and for what reason?

1) US & Brit troops are killing some of the Iraq people.

2) Muslims are killing some of the Iraq people.

3) Who is killing the most everyday? 1 or 2

4) Who is killing Palistine people?

5) Who is killing Isral people?

6) What is a realistic plan to stop the killing, if US leaves the ME, will the killing stop?

7) Does anyone with commen sense believe that the country of Isral is going away, no matter how much killing happens?

8) Back to why would anyone kill people in Egypt, what did it prove?

Bottom line is that killing is not a solution, but it seems that a certain group thinks it will help some problem. I don't understand how anyone can defend the death of these people. I don't see how anyone can defend what happened on 9-11. Maybe if the ME had stopped Osma, Iraq would not be invaded. Maybe if the ME had stopped the Egypt bombers, Iraq would not be invaded. Who and what part of the world launched the attack on 9-11?

For the record, I think Bush was wrong to invade Iraq. Saddam was a problem, going into Iraq was not the answer.

That out of the way, can you answer why certain religions seem to be behind most of the killing? If the ME wants the US to leave, they are going to have to deal with the BAD people in their countries that are blowing up other people, most who have done nothing.

The US used 9-11 and Osma as reasons because the ME couldn't or wouldn't stop the attacks. How do we stop the bombings? Give and answer that will work, The US leaving Iraq will not stop them, they were started before US entered IRaq.

LOL!

ahh come on scmasse. Who did I laugh at?
Dweller said : "The only link between Al-Qaeda and Iraq was the letter Q".
It was aimed at no one. Is it because we're debating that we can't crack a smile or laugh? There was nothing personal. If I offended anyone then I apologise. I did not mean it. :)
Can I at least smile.?

Yeah, Giasi!!!! aND Super, Gibraltar belongs to Spain, give back to us

Let's not forget that the main architects of the second Iraq invasion changed their minds. Do y'all remember Richard Pearl, Fukuyama and the likes? Well they now publicly admit they were wrong. But I think it's too late (even if "later is always better than never"), hundreds of thousands were killed and many more humiliated.
Another US congressional report : "It is unclear how US efforts are helping the Iraqi people obtain clean water, reliable electricity or competent health care," said a report presented by the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) to Congress, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
UN report : "A drama is taking place in total silence in Iraq, where the coalition's occupying forces are using hunger and deprivation of water as a weapon of war against the civilian population," Jean Ziegler told a press conference Friday, October 14, reported Reuters.

So please. Anyone out there who still thinks that it's a good war is invited to think again. The same people who fiercely called for this war are now distancing themselves from "W" but when a mind is weak and ignorant, it relies on arrogance and stubborness.

Fat clemenza

Lilipink, Is Osma a muslim, was he behind the 9-11 attacks? If not him and his group, who did it. For better or worst, it is hard to keep a secret in a free open society like the US. Things seem to come out to the public, which is different than the middle east where the press and the people are controled by the rulers.

Does anyone really think the "crack" reporters at the Gulf Times can tell us the truth about somethings. They can't even report on which resturants have been closed because of health issues. They can't tell us why every major road around every shopping center is under construction at the same time. They are SCARED, if I have to believe somebody, it will be the "free" press, not the government press.

Question; Is the GT still government controlled?

Just remeber how the medias were asked to shut up or face anti patriotism accusations in the aftermath of 911 or even now during this bloody war.
It took US medias three years after the invasion of Iraq to start asking quesitons about bush's policy and it started with the N.Y times.

lili ....always in denial.

Muslims always going on about how it is not the actions of muslims and read the koran.

Actions speak louder than words and I'm sorry to say that the only people currently killing people in the name of their religion are muslims.

If you all took some responsibility for these actions then perhaps it might stop one day but alas all you ever say is that there is no connection to islam etc.

I’m new to this country and visited this site in order to find out helpful information about my new home. Wow I had no idea of the level of anti Americanism. My ignorance, my fault... As an American, some of the beliefs expressed here surprised me. I did read the whole blog quickly so forgive me that this is not verbatim.

I was surprised that some of those who posted here, feel that Americans are so pro Israel. Culturally we don’t think of ourselves as a Jewish nation and my Jewish friends feel marginalized by our predominately Christian culture.
Our foreign policy has been pro Israel, but I feel much of this is due the Average American being ignorant when it comes to ME political issues, and this is certainly true when it comes to Palestine.
I was surprise that some of those who posted, questioned the connection between Osma , Al-Qaeda, and 9/11. To be honest, in the US, that connection is not questioned.

I’m a New Yorker, I suffered personal loss that day, so it is hard to comment on 9/11 without tears ……I will say that I think that act, that evil act, was done to create division in the world…I think that Osma knew how America would react. We did not act out of our religious beliefs, we acted out of fear. People who are frightened are easily manipulated. Do I think there were plans drawn up for the invasion of Iraq from the moment Bush got in office….Yes. Would they have been as easy to push on the American people, if there hadn’t been a 9/11…No. Does Osma care what has happened in Iraq, the suffering, I will guess,,,,, NO. Has America become the great eval force in the eyes of the world Yes….. Could Osma may be have predicted that…yes…
Is the Arab, identity, maybe more united, I think yes and that’s a good thing. Are more Americans aware of the plight of the Palestinian people may be ,, yes, and that’s a good thing.

Lastly I think as an American I need to feel the shame that comes when some one does something evil in the name of something I love…in this case….invading a country, in the name of my country. Likewise, I think if I were Islamic I would feel shame that someone did an evil (9/11) in the name of something I loved, Islam .

I did not ever mention the word ideology. I said religion.

Furthermore although US and UK forces do indeed kill civilians they do so by accident. It is not their intention to kill the innocent. Intention is of critical importance.

The terrorist representatives of Islam target innocents in the name of their RELIGION.

Once again it seems that you are refusing to accept responsbility for actions committed on behalf of islam. A lot of peoples in the world are not that happy with US/UK foreign policy but only the islamic terrorists blow up western civilians at every opportunity.

But then you always need to find someone else to blame other than yourself. Not one person on this site from the islamic camp has ever put their hands up and said "fair enough, there is a problem in our ranks we need to tackle it". It is always you did that you did this its your fault you brought it on yourself.

And again this has nothing to do with my question which none of you will answer. Always banging on about palestine and israel and neo conservatives. The question just to remind all of you was " would iraq be better off if the insurgents stopped blowing themselves and otehrs up?"

Yes. If they did Iraq would be rich and prosperous. The US would leave in a shot.

As it is the US have to stay. Giasi your point about pissing on them is idiotic. Like I said the invasion is in the past so just for the sake of argument lets say that they did set you on fire. Would you as a burning person prefer to be pissed on or just left to burn. Pissed on I am sure because although it might not be the best way at least you would go out eventually and maybe survive.

Butterfly you can't have gibralter back.

Hmmm! Yes there is something very wrong with killing people in the name of any religion. I wish one day the world will be free of these nutters. Hopefully they will all blow themselves up at some point so islamic terror runs out of suicide bombers. In the mean time, I hope all muslims will start to condemn terror. Lound and clear.

Is this an excuse to invade a country, super? Oh, yes, sorry, US/UK kill by accident, of course. It happens when you go invade a country, there are always casualties and desperate people who will fight against the invasion It´s unavoidable, but no bad intentions. No hard feelings about it.

Can you please remind me why America invaded Iraq? Did u actually believed all that crap about WMD´s and bringing democracy to the Iraqi people? Don´t you think that USA, UK, Spain, Italy etc had other interests? Don´t you think that all the violence is the perfect excuse for america to stay in Iraq? Oh, wait a sec, what was your question again? Would Iraq be better off without all this violence? Hell yes. It would. They are so stupid, the insurgents, blowing themselves up like there is no tomorrow. I watch them from home, on my tv, safely and confortable, and think: look at these idiots, why they don´t find a job, find something to do and raise a prosperous country?.
Ah, look, I´m changing my mind, what the..., How can you raise a prosperous country when it has been invaded? How desperate you have to be when you kill your own people? Yes, they are idiots, but they are very very frustrated, so it is understandable to a certain degree. Divide and conquer. You say that Us will leave when violence stops. But the thing is, violence will not stop UNLESS Usa leaves. And even then, it will take years to restore the mess.

Butterfly I never mentioned the invasion. That is a separate issue. All I said was about the logic of continuing to fight for freedom. Stopping fighting would make more sense and be better for the Iraqi people.

You could go to Gibraltar and spain and start blowing everyone up. But I don't think that would speed the return of the rock.

You can't have gibraltar because the people of gibraltar don't want us to give it back. Plus I think it is funny.

Super. how you can detach the suicide bombings from the invasion is beyond me. The only reason these "insurgents" are fighting is the same reason any occupied insurgency has fought throughout history. Against an unjust and illegal oppression.

I can imagine the insurgents saying "you started this, now well finish it". Cant you fathom the fact that maybe the insurgents dont want the coalition to leave under the coalitions terms. That would be far too easy.

Respect

GIASI

They will be better off because...simple answer for a simple minded question: That will push the US UK forces out. Why? Because people like you thought they were going to Iraq with a flower in their canons and be welcomed by the Iraqi people. WHy didn't it happen? Because the Iraqis suffered even more under the US occupation than under Saddam.

Fighting for freedom was never meant to be easy. Remind who said on May 10th 1940: " "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat." ? His people could have been better off if they hadn't tryed to resist the enemy's bombings. DOn't you think so?

Fighting is what any person would do. Show me how America is helping the IRaqi people? DO you honnestly believe America is helping Iraqis and that they would be better off under US occupation???
Read this:

Quote: "Let's not forget that the main architects of the second Iraq invasion changed their minds. Do y'all remember Richard Pearl, Fukuyama and the likes? Well they now publicly admit they were wrong. But I think it's too late (even if "later is always better than never"), hundreds of thousands were killed and many more humiliated.
Another US congressional report : "It is unclear how US efforts are helping the Iraqi people obtain clean water, reliable electricity or competent health care," said a report presented by the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) to Congress, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
UN report : "A drama is taking place in total silence in Iraq, where the coalition's occupying forces are using hunger and deprivation of water as a weapon of war against the civilian population," Jean Ziegler told a press conference Friday, October 14, reported Reuters.
So please. Anyone out there who still thinks that it's a good war is invited to think again. The same people who fiercely called for this war are now distancing themselves from "W" but when a mind is weak and ignorant, it relies on arrogance and stubborness. "

Please give me examples of erica providing help? I want proven facts, not what you think or imagine.

And don't forget that W is part of the neocons, backed by the chrsitian coalition. That before going to war he was asked if he consulted his father "Bush father". His reply scared the mess out of me : "I consulted a higher father" And this guy, unable to obtain decent grades at school is supposed to be entrusted with the destiny of a whole country? Please!!!

Also, don't forget taht wherever US forces go, US evangelists follow. It is the same thing taht is happening in Afghanistan and is happening now in Iraq. They make people's lives miserable and then come singing the Gospel : " hallelujah , we are here to save you in the name of Jesus".
Part of the evangelist's ideology is to prepapre the world for Jesus's return. And taht starts by implementing christianity all over the globe, including where??... you guessed it. The Middle East. So aside from the cursades, the building of Amrica thanks to indian blood and African slaves, people are still being killed in the name of christianity. So please super 7...

Islip36,

Please do not jump to conclusions like accusing some of us of being anti americans. Those were the accustions held by your governemnt towards any dissident voice or any person who asked questions about their failures or incompetence.

We are being critical because your country's foreign policy led by a group of necons that your people RE-elcted is behind so much trouble in this world. But of course, there are people in the US that have always distanced themselves from W Bush. We are trying to brign facts and debate about facts, not preconceived ideas taht we try to put as facts. WE DO NOT GENERALIZE. Unlike some of us here.

If I am an American, am I welcome in Qatar. Are there some people in Qatar who dislike all Americans because of George Bush? Can I dislike the leaders of countries in the ME because they are backing the killing of people who have done nothing.

I will admit that the war in Iraq is wrong, I have told my elected officals, I am working to get the US troops out of Iraq. Have you told your leaders that terrioism is wrong and they need to stop it, have you turned in a terrorist today. What are you doing to stop the killing.

There are people in the streets on American protesting the War, where are the people in the streets of the Middle East protesting the terrorist. You can't protest the terrorist because you aren't free to have an opinion with permission from the leaders.

Islip36.
First I'd like to welcome you to the country and to the forum and make clear that no-one is anti-American but we strongly oppose your countries foreighn policy represented in the constant meddling and the whole cowboy theme George has chosen to adopt.
Most of us (I can speak for myself)like America alot ...It's a beautiful country with a pop culture that is loved and immulated by most of the people of the world........your goverment and your media though would like you to believe that you are hated.....they create a sense of fear and isolation so that cowboy georgte can come along and be the protector.

I apologise on behalf of all muslims .But I can't take responsibility for something I have nothing to do with...All of us are hurt by any act of terror.And to say it is in the name of islam (Which by the way means submission to god, peace and purity)well I won't go into that again.

Please inform me helloqatar ...of which MD leader/s do you refere to .To my knowledge all MD leaders denounce terror attacks and do anything possible to stop them ....Please differentiate between terrorism and insurgency.

super7: to answer the question that youv'e been carrying around this forum like a trump card .......BZZZZZZZ WRONG ANSWER!!.....
I actually think it would be better if the insurgency stopped bombing themselves and innocent civilians and started to adopt a more effective way......They need to bomb the military targets only, if that is possible.....When the cost is too high they will hopefully go home...........I think the American public should be livid with anger......mothers have lost their children/ wives and husbands their loved ones /children have been orphaned....was it worth it???i saw how youn g those soldiers looked ....brainwashed into thinking it would be an in/out situation ..a piece of cake...until they saw the real world....I think hollywood contributed alot to the grandiose notions of "shock and Awe".

""Actions speak louder than words and I'm sorry to say that the only people currently killing people in the name of their religion are muslims.""super7...what about the israelis, the Serbs, Chechnya?.lili.

I thought it was round...:(

.

Moudir,
If we're so bored what are you doing here?

Moudir.. I totally agree with your "doctrine of destabilization" explanation. However, the presence of Israel in the region and its fear of its arab neighbours also drives US foreign policy too. Both of these factors will guarantee the middle east remains a hotbed of instability and conflict for decades.

Respect

GIASI

Thank you Giasi,

Cool heads always prevail.

Moudir

oooh super7. "cultural thing"? that sounds a little racist. you might aswell just say "you arabs are so stupid and im so intelligent that im going to patronise you with my aloof superiority and rejection of your paranoid conspiracy theories", then again i might just be paranoid (im sure theyre listening in on my phone calls).

One thing that is quite evident is that (contrary to what the press write), the average man on the street in the middle east is far far more informed about international politics and history than his average counterpart in the west. It remains a fact that the west (france,italy and the UK) sowed the seeds of strife in the middle east in the last century. History books all agree. You may find it a bitter pill to swallow but it remains the truth.

Respect

GIASI

Of course they'll others for their misfortune since others are supporting their oppressing governemnts!

Do you honnestly believe that Hosni Mubarak, Ben Ali and the likes would remain in power without foreign support? What planet are you from Super7? Please do yourself a favor and grab a history book, but since you refuse to link the past to the present, then please read and listen to what political prisonners in arab countries have to say about their rulers. I can't help but put you in the same bag as a white supremacist when I read your last post. Your speech about you expressing your belief about other peoples is just nauseating. Can you tell me where you're from so others can tell you what they think of you "race"???

You want to deal with the present only? Good, that would very honorable. In that case why can't you ask your country to stop meddling in other countries' internal affairs so arabs, black africans, and latinos can stop blaming the west for their misfortune???

well it is true that the further south you get the more emotional you get....Nothing wrong with that......You deal with your problems in a certain way super7 and we deal with them in another....we really don't like and don't find the need to bottle things up...why be opressed, repressed and depressed (in that sequence)...let it all hang out ...

It's not just the Arabs who are hot headed ...Iheard the whole mediteranean region is like that too....

Who says were not helping ourselves ...just give use time...if we can only fly under the radar long enough to put our act together it'll be sweet!!.lili.

Sorry Fat C what on earth is wrong about expressing my belief about other cultures? Different cultures behave differently. That is just a fact. I did not say any race was more or less able to do anything that would be racist.

Lili Exactly. You have your culture and I have mine. I was simply pointing out that just as mine might seem strange or unnecessary to you so yours can to me.

Fat C where on earth have I ever said anything about anyone remaining in power or otherwise with or without foreign support?

I know you believe yourself to be some sort of scholar of history but put away your baseless criticisms and don't assume anything.

Butterfly,
I could not agree with you more. Histroy were written and re written. That's why you can only take different ones, compare, analyze and then have your own opinion. There's mainstream books governemnts try to have kids learn from and there's other points of view. They surely aren't the universal truth, God bless you for saying it. That's why confronting different point of views would get us closer to the truth than relying blindly on one source.

Super7, dear super7,
What would this debate be without you...
Me a scholar? Surely not. And me thinking of myself to be a scholar? You must be kidding. I guess you're uncapable of taking a new look at yourself.

You asked me not to assume anything. Thanks, but I didn't. I just told you what your post made me feel like. Just like you expressed your feelings about other peoples. But you still haven't told us where you were from, so others could let you know wha they think of your culture.
But tell me, what do you call that? :"I know you believe yourself to be some sort of scholar of history..." Aren't you assuming anything?

Baseless criticism? ... It could be. Who knows.

lilipink I am not sure that the Arabic peoples could be considered to be "flying under the radar". I think they are flying with a giant flashing neon light and massive sound system blaring heavy metal from underneath.