Advising the rulers in private

You have to remember the situation he is in. Salafi publications is under CONSTANT attacks from all sides, the non Muslims and the most hostile attacks come from the Muslims themselves.

The Muslims in his area don't want to hear what he has to say, they probably hate him because of the books he has translated and the dawah he gives and lives upon. He doesn't have it easy so I can't fault him.

He gives regular lessons at the salafi masjid over in Small Heath.. you should try there.

Very interesting indeed.

May i interrupt and ask who are the gentlemen that you guys are speaking about?

thanks     

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Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

I find this very odd, I met Abu Iyyad about 11 or 12 years ago and every time I am in the UK I try and meet up with him. I know him to be a very nice and kind person.. quiet but very nice and he shows a lot of love to the brothers.

As a friend and brother of mine I know for a fact he is doing more than his share and I don't know him to be a person to waste a single moment. I cant recall who it was but I think it was Abu Haneefa who said I used to like to sit with he people and talk about the affairs of the dunyaa until I realized it was a gross wast of time, then I grew to dislike sitting with the people. Look at the books from SPUBS, AL Hidaya ect he translates LOADS of material and inshaallah he will be rewarded for all of that. Why waste time with qeela wa qal?? how the chicken was, how the chicken wasn't how are you or so and so?? When I meet up with him I give him the salams some love I make duaa for him to increase the love between us and to thank him for his efforts and I let him be. He is BUSY and there is no obligation upon him to mix with the people. The dawah he gives is being published in book after book. Allahu alim but I think his good exceeds his bad.

"From the perfection of a persons Islaam is that he leaves alone that which does not concern him" Tirmithee

I spent 3 days at the house of Shk Rabee eating with him and sleeping in his Maktaba and not once did he even ask me my name but he gave me knowledge and that is his duty as a person of knowledge. Not how are you? Are you married? blah blah blah.. I could stay in my community for that. Ask Abu Iyyad about issues pertaining to knowledge and I promise you he wont turn you away unless he doesn't know the answer to your question if he isn't dealing with knowledge how is he benefiting you??

As for the kids.. I lived in a community of salafis but I wouldn't home school their kids nor would I let them school mine and we have been home schooling our kids for a while now.. I agree with him on that as everyone is responsible for their own family on the day of judgment why take on the responsibility of someone else's family? If he does that he will be held accountable.. thats nothing small..

Abu Iyyads circles are VERY in depth and aren't for those who are VERY VERY studious.. Most people get lost rather quickly due to the level of his talks.. YOu go to a talk 2 or 3 times and you will lose interest and stop attending. The circles are small because there are few who can keep up with him.. thats not HIS fault its OUR fault for not studying.

I dunno I don't see the problem here but then I only come to him for ilm and nothing else. We meet and depart SOLELY for the sake of Allah.

I don't know... I know a totally different guy than you do. Maybe we have totally different expectations. Sit with the scholars for a while and you will see he isn't far from them. They give the most precious thing they have to give (ilm) and then go back to their lives and their families who have right upon them.. Leave them be..

Just my take

 
so, do I understand this right...it means, that even if things are not good, we should not fight to make them better, we should wait until Allah shows us a peaceful way out?

It helps to USE the brain, as it is given to you not only for balance.

Alexa

You shouldn't fight or rebel against the ruler no.. It is not permitted in Islam rather patience is what obligatory upon a Muslim not killing and inciting riot.

I think you missed my point.

Where did the Messenger sit with the people and just "kick it" they came to him and asked him how can I get to paradise, how can I attain the pleasure of Allah, how to avoid the hellfire, can I do this or that.. Now we are all on just gathering with the people upon BBQ's and potlucks.... The masjids are FULL when there is a pot luck. Mention a meeting for the explanation of Aqeedah Tahaweiyah and 3 people show up.

Unity is upon the book and the sunnah nothing else, we meet upon it we depart upon it. If a person left Islam because of that then they weren't really upon Islam in the first place... What kind of Islam is that???? Islam is what?? the WORSHIP OF ALLAH. Read about Umar he would push the companions down people would clear the streets in fear of him but did they leave Islam because of him????? No Islam isn't about personalities and anyone who leaves Islam because of another Muslim has been greatly deceived by their shaytaan and has failed to understand the fundamentals of this deen.

Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested. (Al-'Ankabut 29:2)

The people are a test too don't be confused here.

Trust me, he is doing his part and his works show for it. While we sit here on QL hours at a time he translates books and publishes them and people accept Islam from these books and he is rewarded for that. He is doing more than enough and it isnt easy. He has his rights as does his family he isnt Rasool sallah hu alhi wa sallam he is a man who gives dawah where it is welcomed to be heard and YOU know salafia is hated amongst the Muslims and non Muslims alike. In the UK there is only one, ONE real center where it is accepted and that includes your community and that is in Birmingham. YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT. Salafiya is hated period point fact, why face off with those who will reject the dawah? The drive is worth it wa allahu alim.

Where is the obligation set upon him to do more than pass on his knowledge? Where?

Why sit with someone other than the knowledge? Talk? Hey how are you? I can get that anywhere. You have missed a point sis, you need to read the manners of the student of knowledge when sitting with the people of knowledge.

Your misery and problems arent his fault nor his responsibility, it IS your test and you need to face it.

Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested. (Al-'Ankabut 29:2)

You arent tested past what you can endure
Allâh burdens not a person beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned.

He is not responsible for the issues you present here. Allah nor his messenger have obligated this upon him. I think you have confused some issues here wa allahu alaim.

You want to hang and chat then Abu Khadeeja is the man, he will give you that time but Abu Iyyad has a lot on his plate and I cannot fault him.

As for travel I don't know him to travel except to teach or translate and in Germany we had to beg him to come and teach. How he got his house is his affair and not ours

That Allâh may reward them according to the best of their deeds, and add even more for them out of His Grace. And Allâh provides without measure to whom He wills. (An-Nur 24:38)

Anyhow I'm off to bed.

You said: "Really a da'ee has no excuse when other salafis live in the area and one is not concerned with them in any way."

And yet MANY times I have discussed this issue with you and you vehemently deny being Salafi. Now you are saying that you are. Why lie? And if you are not Salafi, why care so much that this man hasn't opened his doors to you?

I really don't mean to cause trouble but am trying to understand you and what you write here.

A life unexamined is not worth living -- Socrates

And I would also like to add that the type of dawah skills these brothers are getting across is serious lack of communication skills.

The Prophet used to ask the condition of the people and their names. Why is it that Scholars and da'ees cannot find the time to do the same.

Communication really doesn't happen unless people talk to each other! Its not all about sitting down and listening all the time.

Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi

 Abu American I am talking about Abu Iyaad amjad rafiq who lives 3 hours from birmingham.

Your experience is yours alone and perhaps I would have found it different if I ever lived in birmingham Allahu Alim.

As for almost leaving Islam. I think it is very crass of you to judge another person in this regard.  I have told you and everyone else my experiences because of the great problems and solutions I have found in them. If you find it easy to comprehend such things as child marriages, marrying underage children to men without their permission (fatwa of Imam baaz), and such things then that is completely up to you. I didn't join Islam to be one of the blind followers to this religion.  And the actions of people like Amjad just push a person who is already struggling with these concepts away.  You are very right that when I joined Islam it was based on the sugar coated version. Even my husband stumbled when I asked him hardcore questions under one of my interrogations.  Yet here I am standing strong in the face of adversaries fighting for islamic truth. Sometimes I go wrong in that fight and sometimes Allah causes me to have correct wisdom.. Allahu Alim.  One thing I do not do is change the religion in any way just to prove my point or make it more digestible. I face the collision head on and hope I survive the crash.

InshAllah sincerety will always win at the end of the day. Hence my great hope that if this religion is correct (which I believe it is) then others (like me) will also be strong enough to survive the crash as well.

Obviously I can see that your back to the whole pointing fingers and sounds alot like people who are against spubs.  How do you know they are not saying some truths in some (obviously not all) their accusations? Is it not the salafi manhaj that we analyse ourselves and look for faults before finding it in others. Also, since were on the subject, I never listened to people or befriended anyone against salafiya during my staunch days and little crisis of identity. POINT BLANK!

It was only after recieving an unwelcome from Abu Khadeeja. And mainly because of a friend of his who burned him bad and backbit my husband for no islamic reason that we started to feel something was amiss. It was consolidated by Amjad's lack of brotherhood in the community. In which I lived here for 2 years and although they knew full well my husband married never bothered to even invite us for dinner at his house.  In fact, I had to search out her number from a friend just to make contact or I would have known NO salafis in the community.  In which they never offered me any other contacts either. And now you are accusing us of somehow going astray and deserving of such treatment??? For the sake of Allah open your mind a little and stop being so suspicious.

Just because you had a positive experience in birmingham does not mean that the lack of adaab is not rampant among spubs. And I can see what an impact they have had on you Abu American as you mix with non salafis. Something Amjad and his crew are staunchly against in every shape and form.  Just being on this website would make you held up for scrutiny by them. And since the scholars we know about in Qatar are not of the Bilal Philips Ilk I almost assume you don't have any better communication with spubs either or you would already know about their whereabouts!

What I would be really interested in hearing is why, how and when you were helped out by the birmingham spub salafis. I bet a very interesting case and observations could be made based on your situation.

Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi

A life unexamined is not worth living -- Socrates

Princess I think I am in Green Lane qeela wa qal 

surrounded with Mirpuri's

you and your husband (and btw, yes you have mentioned MANY times about his mosque and books so we all got that point by now I am sure). For example, you said: "But the real icing on the cake was moving into the town where I live now. Which is full of backward villagy mirpuri pakistani salafees. Who refuse to mix outside their own families, have forced marriages and have the worst manners one has ever seen."  Aren't you once again backbiting and passing judgment -- in fact in a most abhorrent way by ethnically steroetyping people in a very ugly way?

their are certain common denominators which outsiders to villagy indians can observe. These differ depending upon the village they are from and their educational and financial background. As well as the time and reason they came to the uk.  Most education non-villagy background pakistanis know full well what I mean when I say this.  A few of these common denominators are lack of socialising outside the family, then outside the castes and in the local community. Hence the complaint by many british that many of the muslims have created insular communities. One will find this less so with the more educated pakistanis who have come to work in the uk with professional jobs.  Also many of these pakistani's also only marry within the family, forced marriages, abuse is rampant, women tend not to speak english despite living in the uk for the last 30 years etcr. 3 types of people have resulted from these people (in general but with many subsects).

Some of the second generation went to university and established the businesses started by their fathers or thru the families savings.  These have usually gone on to have a very ikwaanee outlook on Islam and take it very political.  Few have been able to pull themselves out of the gutter and become successful professionals with a more british outlook on life. And the negatives in the more educated  have through their own family culture become confused about Islam and caused them to partly reject the religion and eager to practice it. Or this confusion has caused them to dive deeper into more extreme views of the religion or against practicing the faith.

Others from these people have not had access to education and remained in family businesses (which are successful  and can make alot of money).

For the most part they tend to marry their first or second cousins and stick to the very cultural viewpoints of their parents. Others have again become extreme in rebellion of a culture that has limited their chances of education and working either away from the family business or easing the pressures of unhappy marriages they were forced into. And then we have the ones who leave culture, religion and partake in love marriages instead often fighting with the family and in some cases running away from them where they may get into things as deep as being the biggest drug dealers in the uk or gain the education and spouse they would have liked in the first place.

Very few of them become staunch salafi/ikwaanee supporter and even some of these type of background were known to be suicide bombers on 7/7.  They range from Brailwees although many of them were hanafi in pakistan before they came the only masjids in the uk were brailwee masjids.  Others have become staunch tableequis and Deobandis and one will often find families competing between salafiya and tableequi in the rebellious quest of my religion is better than yours scenerio.

These are just a few examples of the different types of mirpuri people. Obviously, I haven't even begun to look at the types of pakistanis and arabs and what they are upon yet.

Now among these people all of them have some common factors. Because of their insular natures of staying within the family and caste systems one would be very hard pressed to actually have a friendship with them unless you are part of their family.. Even members of their own caste do not often visit each other unless for necessity . And the problems are worse in the salafi villagy families where a complaint often made against them by members of their own caste are that they never visit anyone. And people have to visit them! And then of course of course we have the intricacies of the caste system that is still predominate in ever more educated families. Where some families look down on the poorer members of the group or those with less status. In the salafi case many of these arrogance issues have come with a mentality that says I have more knowledge then you because I have found the right dawah.

Now imagine this case with outsiders who come to live in the city. Be they educated punjabi, indians, arabs, and all their own social baggage that comes with them.  Many will find the community insular. The more ikwaanee people who are educated such as doctors will be welcomed to give talks by both the educated and uneducated of the community and thus raising their status and respect.  Of course those giving the talks do not need to know a lick about islam but that doesn't matter because they are doctors or lawyers. Right?  And these type of issues do not stop with the mirpuri community as many of the educated punjabi, indians, and arabs will not mix with them (although they are happy to give talks) and often form their own circles of friendship based on status.  Thus raising the whole status and greed problem already existant.  Usually the arabs, kurds, and afghanis all form their own seperate groups from the educated indian/pakistani community.  Of course, all the while continuing pleasant conversation in passing between members of all communities and rarely forming good bonds for the sake of Allah.

All these issues aside.. we now have the salafi community. Broken by the rift of the 1980's and early 1990's pitting against themselves.  Abu Iyaad trying to overtake a local masjid at one point and refuses to make jummah there and opts for the more arab ikwaanee masjid instead. Although often leaving his prayers at home.  Where as the salafi masjid Imam is going around giving circles and bringing people to islam he is also supporting people such as Zakir Naik, and Sheikh Shuaib and the functions they inhabit. 

And now the salafis in the community torn between the two break up and dispelled from Abu Iyaad's lack of manners have gone to the local salafi masjid. (the one amjad staged a coo and tried to take over).  Their attitudes are very representative of the typical villagy mirpuri backgrounds they come from accept now they are in chaos concerning the religion and lack support.

And amidst all this chaos here come hubby straight from sufi/ikwaanee cambridge. Leaving the city and a very successful career and promotion to work part time so he can study with the great Abu Iyaad Amjad Rafiq. Something recommended by  Abu Khadeeja himself. Whilst here he attended a few circles and started to realize that the brother wasn't teaching anything new. Nor was their a strong salafi community here. And that Abu Iyaad's manners were lacking. He found a friend Asghar who went to establish a business in saudi and lives next door to sheikh Rabee.  (And by the way, despite his mirpuri villagy roots where forced marriages are still predominate in his family he actually wholeheartedly agrees on the things I am saying about amjad and his idea of brotherhood thanks to his own open mind and study under the scholars. ) May Allah reward the brother and make him successful. InshAllah ameen.

Now in this type of neighborhood their are a handful of spubs salafis. All of which are looking for guidance, community and support and those needs are not being met. No circles are established, no united front on homeschooling where Amjad could dictate the curriculum among other things. A few educated doctors, lawyers from indian, arab and other backgrounds who are not accustomed to the insular mirpuri community and caste system and very much need the companion ship as their friends have become their family whilst living abroad. And my husband and I who are sacrificing everything just to have that community that we both need so much, the knowledge that we yearn for where one of the greatest da'ee's in the uk reside.  Abu Americans clique tends to think that these people reject salafiya because it goes against their desires. But my husband and I have personally been witness to a dramatic change when they hear what makes sense and has proof. MashAllah you will never feel alone with these people and they will always welcome you in their house, home and lives. Supporting each other in the practice of what they learn and making it easy for everyone around.  Overlooking each other faults. You will be pushed to find anyone in the salafi caste ridden community do the same.

 And another thing caught my attention: "I swear by Allah we only moved here to be closer to Abu Iyaad and to enjoin each other on good." How do you know that won't be the case here. Have you let these people know that you are coming here and what your expectations of them are?

I have studied under sheikh Fawzaan, sheikh rabee, sheikh muqbil's daughters in the past to name a few. They are no way like some of the da'ees in the uk. Very approachable and easy  to talk with. And always concerned about  their fellow muslims. Hence my question regarding the circumstances that surround Abu Americans own experience.

 What if they don't want to open their homes to you socially or have you educate their children? It seems to me we might be reading the same kind of thing about the "scholars" here in Qatar by this time next year. 

I offered to help out.. not educate their children. I asked that we combine our different talents and bring the children together in what was possible. Obviously I understand that Amjad has his own program with his kids (although I believe it is mainly his wife who just has a GCSE). My  offer to him was to bring the community together by the 3 sp salafi families homeschooling the kids to bring them together and join in some activities. So they could socialize a bit. My children do not have a big family to fall back on.. And to be honest Amjads children and the other salafi families kids are extremely anti social (another aspect of their caste backgrounds) mainly due to lack of mixing with other children. Furthermore, this would give the mothers a chance to brush up on our own Islam and read Islamic books and practice tajweed together.

But to be honest, it was a blessing in disguise for me because I notice a big difference in my daughter. She smiles more often, is cheerful and not alienated from the country where she lives. English manners are superb in that they always say please and thank you.  And it has opened my eyes to the insular nature of some salafis and its effect on their children. Alhumdulilah I have seen the difference between kids forced to live this way and am personally much more impressed with the  parents who sent their children to English schools and still instilled Islam upon them. And mashAllah some of their children are the best of muslims I have seen. Allahu Alim.

They are better able to understand the dawah and ask intelligent questions. And their practice, respect, and caring for others seems to come genuinely from the heart. MashAllah la Quwatta Illah billah.

And I am now prepared for dissappointment PM. I still take knowledge from Abu Iyaad but with the realization of some of his personality traits that also inhibit him.  And I am much better prepared to handle some of the issues with the scholars equipped with knowledge on how to advise them in private and in the open.  And since acquiring this knowledge I have tried to give them naseeha. And most people hate naseeha concerning their faults.

You ask me to look into myself.. and I assure you that although not much can be written in a forum or even a blog. I have really really looked into myself and asked outright questions of advice from Abu iyaad himself and the scholars.  How to deal with the situation and if I am being OTT. And Alhumdulilah none of them have given me any reply in the negative at all. Also I am not the only one who feels like this.. as I have mentioned before. As many many much more knowledgable people then amjad feel exactly the way I do or so they have told me.

Anyway I'm sorry for such a long post. Obviously I don't expect people to read this and understand.  As for the reason behind the so called stereo types. Stereo types which I hope have been made quite clear not to apply to the whole group but give an idea of the current situation I have faced over the past years regarding the aspect of villagy mirpuri salafis and some (points that pertain to the discussion) of what they represent and how it has seeped into the dawah. They are not opinions held by me but that which is apparant and as in every group of people issues that need to be dealt with.  I would not have been able to learn about these differences if it wasn't for my own mother in laws caste/villagy mentality and family dynamics,  the observation of neighbors and talks with some of the salafi and pseudo salafi youth in the area.   It was also helpful seeeing the difference between those pakistanis coming from India/pakistan, educated and without implementing a caste system any longer. And my previous experience of muslims in America and the middle east before residing here.

PM if it is me then this would be a problem I would have faced with whoever I meet. However, I have found some great friends who not only challange me intellectually but also support my husband and I islamically.  In fact, it is my own reserved nature and previous salafi inhibitions that I sometimes part myself from these people although I am always welcome and they do not mix with people of biddah.

I do not know how much you know about the whole salafi thing going on around the world. Particularly in the uk and US. But these are just my experiences of the spubs salafi situation.  And I haven't even begun to talk about the pseudo salafis yet.

Anyway I'm off. As I am sure my experiences will be unwelcome and taking out of context through everyone read. I dot hope that it does help people in the future who may experience the same situation I have. May it give them a broader perspective to relate their own experiences with. InshAllah Alahumma Ameen.

Anything I have said which is wrong is from myself and Anything I have said right is from Allah subhana wa ta'ala.

Anyone who wishes to know what the salafis are upon can go to www.spubs.com or www.salafitalk.net for references

Likewise don't take my personal experiences. Who knows I might be bloody crazy as some people seem to suggest so by all means check them out yourselves and make your own experiences.

InshAllah alahumma ameen.

Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi

I am in contact with salafi publications still.. Abu Khadeejas brother lives here and I talk to him daily.. there are some students of knowledge from Medinah Uni but no salafi scholars are here and they don't stop through either.. I don't think they are welcomed due to all of the falsehood of wahabbisim ()whatever that is) that has been spread and people trying to connect that to Salafiyyah and yada yaa. Seems jamatul Tableegh run things out here.

Zakir the "Dr." is a wreck.. We can start a new thread for that one.. He is all over the place. When you say shk Shuaib I take it you mean the greatly refuted shuaib hassan??? I don't know of a single sound scholar that hasn't spoken against him..

I also think there is something wrong with premise that you have to be a doctor or lawyer to understand Islam correctly and you cant be a "regular guy/gal" and understand the deen. Please tell me I misunderstood that one. Muhammed Sallahu alahi wa sallam was ILLITERATE so the basis of your statement is whack when we look at the deen.

As for the forced marriages and underage marriages, I have about 200 CD's here and many cover those topics and some are done by Abu Iyyad and he speaks against it. you are welcomed to them when you get here.

Anyhow we are going in circles.

 Forced marriages, shuhaib hassan and Zaik Nakir and the status of elevating doctors is not in the spubs dawah or manhaj. I made that quite clear Abu American that this came from the cultural aspects of the mirpuris and some of the muslims who reside in the city where I live.

Here is a paste from salafi talk regarding the ettiquettes in being in gatherings. Gatherings that happen normally in other places do not happen in my town.  Such as meeting and seeing people every day like abu khadeeja's brother. 

I am obviously pointing out that the kind of support that you have personally recieved is not common amongst the salafis. And this is one of the biggest complaints against them from people observing and agreeing with the dawah. Let alone those who are not quite as consolidated with their beliefs.

It is incumbant upon all of us to establish a brotherhood with like minded people who are a support for one another!  Being that many spub salafis have little or no families to fall back on when times become rough due to the islamic concepts we believe and practice. (if we would like to stay on the manhaj that is)

http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=11&Topic=5124

Etiquettes (To Be Observed) In The Gatherings Of The People

Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi

just clarifies that you are not capable of the soul-searching I was suggesting. You just keep defending your harsh and judgmental words and turn the mirror on everyone but yourself. There is nothing more to say that might help you "get it". Personally I think you are hell-bent on self-destruction and will take down as many people as possible with you.

A life unexamined is not worth living -- Socrates

It's about advising the "rulers" in private and yet it quickly turned into you judging and backbiting your community leaders, "Princess". Turn that mirror back upon yourself and consider a different manner and method.

A life unexamined is not worth living -- Socrates

I have heard the name but cant recall who he is

as the "Princess" has stated she does, but I DO KNOW that the word is "coup" and not "coo". ;)

A life unexamined is not worth living -- Socrates

And actually felt that their credibility was in question when the "Princess" brought up her score! LOL!

A life unexamined is not worth living -- Socrates