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Equality
Sura An-Nisa, 34
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one superior to the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)".
According to this Sura men can beat women. Can somebody tell me which Sura allows women to beat men if they are disloyal?
HAPPYDAY said
Men and woman are equal but ...Men and woman are equal but have different abilities, different qualities. They are equal in importance but have different rolls. By the way, do u see it says first, second, LAST!!!!!
MagicDragon said
HAPPYDAY ...Thank you for repeating what my post already stated. However, where is the Sura allowing women to beat ("last") men if they are disloyal?
abohmaid said
men and women arent equal ...equal means the same
and they are not
abohmaid said
god created the women as queen ...so god created the man stronger and smarter and......
to serve and protect the queen (women)
Gypsy said
No man is superior to a ...No man is superior to a woman. What a crock.
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abohmaid said
no problem ...keep crocking
MagicDragon said
Gypsy, but Sura An Nisa ...Gypsy, but Sura An Nisa says:"Allah has made one superior to the other". Could it be that it is the woman who is superior??
Gypsy said
Or it could be that the Sura ...Or it could be that the Sura an Nisa was written by a man. ...oh wait it was.
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MagicDragon said
gypsy, which "Holy Book" was ...gypsy, which "Holy Book" was written by women?
Gypsy said
None. Visit ...None.
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tallg said
There's a thread on QL ...There's a thread on QL somewhere which explains how the bit about it being ok for men to beat woman is not necessarily the correct interpretation of this Sura.
abohmaid said
please ...show some respect to the holy quran
MR PAUL said
Magicdragon, "Holy books" written by Women..... ...How about "Which Lipstick" and "Handbags monthly"
:D
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Gypsy said
Why? I'm not Muslim or ...Why? I'm not Muslim or Religious. I believe it's a book like any other.
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MagicDragon said
they've written some cooking ...they've written some cooking books, Mr. Paul.
MR PAUL said
:D ...NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Gypsy said
Isn't Cosmo the women's Holy ...Isn't Cosmo the women's Holy book?
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abohmaid said
i dont care what u are ...but good behavior to respect what is holy for others
Gypsy said
How was I disrespectful? By ...How was I disrespectful? By simply saying what I believe to be true, that it's a book written by a man. How is that disrespectful?
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MagicDragon said
you are making fun out of ...you are making fun out of this thread, gypsy. (Which, ot course, is your right). But my initial concern has not been satisfied with any profound proof. I expected that some would argue that only the Arabic version of the Qur'an is correct. However, I cannot understand how people dare to "interpret" the words of this book. You either take it as it is, or it will loose its "holy" standard. And if there is room for interpretation then all translations of the Qur'an basically are of no use at all!
Gypsy said
"all translations of the ..."all translations of the Qur'an basically are of no use at all!"
I think you hit the nail on the head right there.
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MR PAUL said
MD, yer asked if any "holy books" were written by women.... ...Gypsy answered with "None" which is true. So why now, are you and the other person turning it into at witch hunt against Gyps ?
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Gypsy said
Because I don't believe that ...Because I don't believe that the Quran is the word of God. Therefore I'm being disrespectful.
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MagicDragon said
Mr. Paul, you completely ...Mr. Paul, you completely misunderstand. tallg mentioned that there are "interpretations" of An Nisa. I am fully on Gypsy's side.
MagicDragon said
The point is this: The (for ...The point is this: The (for Muslims) "Holy Book" says men are superior to women. We all know that this is against all legality (except for Muslim societies). And that's the dilemma.
Gypsy said
Of course it's a dilemma, in ...Of course it's a dilemma, in our modern and more enlightened day and age we can see how foolish this Suna is. It goes against the laws against spousal abuse in most countries. So, what does that mean? If we know this Suna is obsolete, what about others?
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MagicDragon said
The same, Gypsy. ...The same, Gypsy.
abohmaid said
again ...maybe u cant be a polite person
dmigtysolomon said
Gypsy, it is really hard to argue with you,... ...because you don't believe in God. But for a while, I will go to your level.....
The equality you are saying that is being practiced in most of the countries you know (which has something to do with spousal abuse) tend to be abused by the women sector. Equality means same legal rights, same treatment like that of men but does it ever means being domineering of men.
The topic above is about the quote in the Quran regarding the possibility of men beating his wife for a certain scenario. I do not agree that man will beat his wife for no reason at all. For me, maybe the only reason I will beat my wife is if I caught her sleeping with another man (I would even kill her). But aside from this, there is no way I could lift my hands over her (whatever and however grave her fault is).
I'm not a Muslim, I only believe in the Bible and if all married women would just follow what God commanded them when they tie the knots with their partner, and their partner do their share, marriage will be a lasting one.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
MR PAUL said
But Dmigty, to quote ya here a sec... ..."and if all married women would just follow what God commanded them when they tie the knots with their partner, and their partner do their share, marriage will be a lasting one."
So that means Women should just do as they are told !
Thats not very sporting is it ?
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Gypsy said
What does my believing in ...What does my believing in God have to do with it? Are you trying to say Dmigghty that women are abusing domestic abuse laws? In what country in the world do women domineer over men? In all countries we are still trying to get equal pay for equal work and benefits.
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azilana7037 said
and how about the MEN.... ...they made the same VOW when they "tied the knot"....how come they still PLAY THE FIELD????
Rizks said
Uhh !!! again a War gonna ...Uhh !!! again a War gonna Start in this Tread .....
Peace Friendz ....
Gypsy said
Mr Paul, the religious texts ...Mr Paul, the religious texts teach men to treat women like a belonging, rather then an actual person, with a mind of their own. We are supposed to be docile and work hard, like the family donkey, with about the same rights granted to us.
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dmigtysolomon said
Actually, the problem in other church marriage,... ...is that this commandments of God were not clearly explained to the couples. In our church, even the pre-wedding ceremony seminars wherein the couple to be married were briefed of what will be their duties and responsibilities when they ultimately get married, the responsibilities of man and woman is clearly defined.
In our religion, the man is the decision-maker but he need to consult his wife for decisions involving any matters. In most cases, if a man treasure his wife, recommendations will be highly regarded. It's just like if you are the BOSS in a company and you are the decision-maker, you asked for advice and recommendation from your staff or partners and then you decide.
I agree with you, women should do as they are told, but you miss a point, WHO is this (I never said it's the man) telling her what to do, it's the commandments of God who will guide both partners in dealing with everyday's life.
This is the true equality being raised Gypsy and Magicdragon, let no-one among the husband and wife rule over each other but the commandments of God to which they both adheres.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Gypsy said
Of course Dmighty your ...Of course Dmighty your "Commandments from God" but the male as the decision maker and, in your own words, THE BOSS of the household. That's not acceptable and that's not equality.
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HAPPYDAY said
Hay guys if ur muslim or ...Hay guys if ur muslim or thinking to become muslim then dont worry about it!!!!!
dmigtysolomon said
Gypsy, the topic here is not equality,... ...about civil rights. It is perfectly clear, that is why we have now lady Presidents or Prime Ministers or Lady Managers.
The topic above is about equality between man and woman bound by the sanctity of marriage.
BTW, I read again the post, so even in the Sunna, there were guideliness when is the time man can "beat" the woman (if ever). Not for any no reason at all, and there are stages (of course its how man treat his wife).
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
ssdoha said
Good discussion ...Hey guys, good discussion is going on. But i recommend, one who wants to know then go to any islamic center in doha. just quarelling in this type of forums will not give the detailed information.
Have a nice time.
dmigtysolomon said
Hey, Gypsy,... ...in any organization, there will be an appointed BOSS. There will only be one President or whoever is appointed to be the signatory or decision maker, it could be a man or a woman.
Now if you can't live with that, I don't know what organization will accept you. Are you married, Gypsy? If you are, how's the house doing, who decides?, who cooks?, who do the laundry?, Who works? Who cleans the toilet? How do you practice equality at home? What is the basic duty of a husband? and that of the wife? Are you aware of the difference (or sort of inequalities)?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Gypsy said
I was talking about in ...I was talking about in marriage, it's not equal or acceptable for a man to ever raise his hand to his wife or tell her what to do. She's a person with a mind of her own and rights of her own.
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Gypsy said
Who Works? Both of us. Who ...Who Works? Both of us. Who does the laundry? Both of us. Who cooks? Both of us. Who makes the decisions? Both of us together. THAT is Marriage, not one person telling the other what to do. Marriage is not a job, there is no boss, for marriage to work it has to be a partnership.
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dmigtysolomon said
So, Gypsy, you don't believe that,... ...the men do the hunting and the women do the household chores? In most case, it's the male species doing the hunting for food and the female species wait at home "til the male species bring home the "bacon" for family consumption.
Good for you, everything is done by both of you. So who's in-charge of the house when both of you are out doing works. I supposed, you are doing the housecleaning while he is cooking, or vice-versa. And if I asked, who's on top (no offense), you'll say both of you, nyah. The "inequality" is one is on top and the other is under, and vice-versa. Or both of you on top at the same time and vice-versa? Just asking??
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
abohmaid said
ooohhh good ...there is some believes
Gypsy said
Both of us work, whoever has ...Both of us work, whoever has the time, because on various days we get off at different times, whoever's off first does the cooking or what cleaning needs to be done. The jobs are split evenly. When it comes to making decisions we decide together what needs to be done. I feel very sorry for your wife if you keep her has chattel to boss around.
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charanmafiriyals said
I am the boss and I boss ...I am the boss and I boss around the house everyday giving instructions to her while I watch TV with my legs rest on the coffee table.
Gentlemen - be like me :)
Gypsy said
ROFL! Sure sure Charan. ...ROFL! Sure sure Charan. Funny that's not what your wife tells me ;)
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charanmafiriyals said
Gypsy - She is fabricating ...Gypsy - She is fabricating stories to hide her dissapointment :)
Gypsy said
Hmmm....you could be ...Hmmm....you could be right...I'd be pretty dissapointed I married you to ;)
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rami-leb said
Why is it so hard to believe ...Why is it so hard to believe that a marriage (or de facto relationship, come to that) where a man and a woman mutually reach an agreement about every decision is possible?
Why is it so hard to believe that a marriage is possible where the man and the woman never strike one another?
Why is it so hard to believe that neither the male nor the female feels that they can tell the other what to do?
What sort of old dinosaurs are posting in this forum, trying to justify the notion that, well, you know, a man can hit 'his' wife because, well, she wasn't 'obedient'?
Gypsy said
Thank you rami-leb, I was ...Thank you rami-leb, I was beginning to think I was the only one here who didn't think it was ok to boss your wife around.
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dmigtysolomon said
She's also working,... ...we share in household chores, I treasure her a lot so she's a big part in decision-making. If I make a decision, all factors considered. I am answerable to my God as HEAD OF THE FAMILY and whatever happens to my family, me and only me is to be responsible. I shield my wife and children from any complications, that's how I treasure them all. That's how I earned the respect of my wife. She know her position in the organization (and mind you, her power is enormous)and she very well know her limits of power. Once the word is spoken, everybody learns to respect and listen and follow, then peace reign in the house.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
charanmafiriyals said
It is perfectly Ok to boss ...It is perfectly Ok to boss your wife around but remember to keep all safety measures in tact in case of a sudden volcano eruption :)
Gypsy said
Well aren't you just a ...Well aren't you just a benevolent dictator. She's such a lucky piece of property.
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charanmafiriyals said
"we share in household ..."we share in household chores,"
I never do. That's her Job :)
"I treasure her a lot so she's a big part in decision-making."
She can make all the decisions but end the mine will be implimented.
dmigtysolomon said
Rami-leb, what is your definition of "obedient"?,... ...obedient to WHO or what? The WHO here is GOD/ALLAH. Obedience to His laws.
Even manmade civil laws states, if you caught your wife in the act (in bed with another man), you can kill her (not just beat her) and the law will not punish you.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
charanmafiriyals said
benevolent dictators always ...benevolent dictators always aquire the best piece of property. either by hook or crook :)
Gypsy said
Shup up Charan, NO man made ...OOPs *edit* sorry Charan I thought you were jokingly posting that civl law says a man can kill his wife if she commits adultry. :P
Dmighty NO law says that, not even your bloodthirsty religious ones. You are such the British word for an obsessive masturbator.
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charanmafiriyals said
Even manmade civil laws ...Even manmade civil laws states, if you caught your wife in the act (in bed with another man), you can kill her (not just beat her) and the law will not punish you.
What a lord of crap. Nobody can tak another body's life.
May be in the Jungle called "Religeous Fanatics" you can do that. not in the civilized world :(
rami-leb said
As far as I am aware, the ...As far as I am aware, the only common legal precedent in the west for killing your spouse and not being punished yourself is within the 'battered wife' scenario.
Courts frequently acquit women who have killed their abusive husbands on the grounds that he was quite cleary an asshole who had it coming and she did the world a favour by doing him in.
Gypsy said
And THAT's an incredibly ...And THAT's an incredibly hard thing to prove, because you have to kill him while he's physically hurting you, because if you wait till he's asleep or something then it doesn't count, because you could have gone to the police.
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rami-leb said
I love how the so called ...I love how the so called religion of peace tells men that they can be phyisically violent to their wife.
Riiiiiiiight.
That one's too easy.
tallg said
I can't be bothered to ...I can't be bothered to search for the old thread, but if I recall correctly, the "interpretation" I mentioned wasn't anything to do with translation into another language, but the way a certain word is interpreted in Arabic.
Gypsy said
But she deserves it ...But she deserves it rami-leb, after all in dimighty's worlds she may have not known "She know her position in the organization (and mind you, her power is enormous)and she very well know her limits of power. Once the word is spoken, everybody learns to respect and listen and follow"
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rami-leb said
It must be nice being a ...It must be nice being a muslim woman knowing that you're in a 'good' marriage when your husband doesn't hit you that much.
And even if he does, it's your own fault for not doing whatever he tells you to do with your meaningless, subserviant life.
realsomeone said
Well why do you want to ...Well why do you want to discuss this on this forum where you know non muslims are more then the muslims?
why dont you post to Islamic websites to get the correct answer, it seems you are not honestly looking for honest answer but just want to create a debate.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Gypsy said
Becuase you won't get an ...Becuase you won't get an honest answer from an islamic site. You'll get some long blown out propagandized answer.
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dmigtysolomon said
So Rami-leb, just a hypothetical question,.... ...if you caught you wife in the act of having sex with another man, you won't kill her?
If Gypsy caught her husband on the act of having sex with another woman and do nothing, I won't be surprised, she a westerner.
In the Philippines, there will be trial but if proven CAUGHT IN THE ACT, THE KILLER HUSBAND will not be punished.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
realsomeone said
Dont expect us to apologises ...Dont expect us to apologises to you what the Quran teaches, we believe it firmly 100% truth no matter how much you twist it or try to make it seem injustice.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
rami-leb said
Dmighty - No. Why would I ...Dmighty - No. Why would I kill her? I would divorce her.
Her life if not 'my' life to take. Even though she's married to me, unlike in a Muslim, or Philipino, marriage, I don't own her 'life'.
Gypsy said
I don't even HAVE to "twist" ...I don't even HAVE to "twist" it's such obvious injustice any moron could see it.
Dmighty, if you kill your wife you go to jail ANYWHERE in the world. Simple as that.
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mallrat said
rami-leb ...you are someone of sound mind,
,
i agree with you.
.
After the game, the KiNG and the PAwN go into the same box.
-Italian Proverb
rami-leb said
I wonder why this guy went ...I wonder why this guy went into hiding?
He only killed his wife after all.
And yes, this story is from the Philippines:
http://www.gmanews.t...
CEBU CITY, Philippines - Police operatives dug on Wednesday the remains of a woman believed hacked to death by her husband last June 22 in a village in Cebu province.
Senior Inspector Mario Monilar of the homicide section told reporters that he sent a police team to the village of Cambinocot where the decomposing body of the victim was found buried in an abandoned charcoal hole few meters away from the house of the couple.
The victim Juanita Gemina, 25, a resident of the village, went missing after a quarrel with Raymundo Gemina, her husband.
During the on site investigation, neighbors of the couple revealed that the couple’s quarrel stemmed from Raymundo’s jealousy, police said.
According to investigators, when neighbors asked the husband of the whereabouts of his missing wife, he told them she fled and worked in another place.
Crime laboratory chief Superintendent Nestor Sator said that autopsy result showed the victim sustained a hack wound in her left face.
Sensing that his neighbors were suspicious of him, Raymundo went into hiding and surrendered to authorities.
He admitted of committing the crime but insisted he did it for self defense, alleging that his wife first hacked him at the height of their heated argument.
The suspect is now in detention, as the police prepare to file formal charges against him by Friday. Angelo Pilones, GMANews.TV
Gypsy said
Ya, cause according to ...Ya, cause according to Dmigtywan$ker, he has the right to kill his wife in the Philipines. :p
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dmigtysolomon said
That's why the only condition is,.... ...CAUGHT IN THE ACT.
Well, as I've said, since multiple sex partners is predominant in the west (and judging by the movies I saw), it is nothing for them to caught their partners with somebody else.
But in a conservative Christian country such as ours, adultery and concubinage is a mortal sin and if CAUGHT IN THE ACT, if the offended party (out of rage or anger or betrayal of trust) kill the offender, in Philippine court, the killer can be set free. And there are already many cases in the Philippines that is already a legal precedents.
BTW, Rami-leb, you don't love your wife. If you can not hurt her physically (the least), you don't truly love her.
But of course, the level of recognition of love in the west is not anymore that serious. They can always change partner in a flick of the eye. What is divorce for?? Right, Rami-leb?????
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
charanmafiriyals said
He will be killed the moment ...He will be killed the moment he shows his face by her reletives. that's why he had to go for hiding ;)
tallg said
/-a-t-/dmigtysolomon: "BTW, .../-a-t-/dmigtysolomon:
"BTW, Rami-leb, you don't love your wife. If you can not hurt her physically (the least), you don't truly love her."
I assume you have to be joking when you say that.
"But of course, the level of recognition of love in the west is not anymore that serious. They can always change partner in a flick of the eye. What is divorce for?? Right, Rami-leb?????"
I thought Muslim's could get divorced, can't they?
Gypsy said
WTF!!! "BTW, Rami-leb, you ...WTF!!! "BTW, Rami-leb, you don't love your wife. If you can not hurt her physically (the least), you don't truly love her."
You are one sick F$$ck Dmighty! You seriously need help, even MORE so your wife Needs to get the hell away from you.
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dmigtysolomon said
You are funny, Rami-leb,.... ...that's totally different situation. Open your eyes, did it says there, caught in the act? The body was dugged already so it means not caught in the act. You are such a .....
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
rami-leb said
OMG.. Are you fully crapping ...OMG..
Are you fully crapping me?
If I *can't* hurt my wife, I *don't* love her?
Dude, you have some real serious anger management issues here.
How can I hurt, much less kill, someone I love?
And by the way, I'm so glad that apparently murder isn't, in fact, a mortal sin. What a relief.
dmigtysolomon said
Tallg, we are talking of CAUGHT IN THE ACT ,... ...OF HAVING SEX WITH ANOTHER PERSON.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Gypsy said
Killing your wife is no ...Killing your wife is no different then killing the family dog when it catches rabies, eh dmighty?
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rami-leb said
It'd be such a great defence ...It'd be such a great defence in court.
"Your honour, I loved my wife so much, how could I *kill* her".
Seriously, people go to jail for killing puppies and kittens, and you seriously expect us to believe that somehow there is exists a magical land where killing your wife is fine, in the 'right' circumstances.
rami-leb said
Maybe this is why so many ...Maybe this is why so many western men marry philippino mail-order brides.
If she ever cheats on him, he knows he can just walk in and shoot her in the back and that's just fine.
tallg said
Ok, well firstly your ...Ok, well firstly your comment doesn't read like that, and secondly I still assume you must be joking. Are you seriously saying that if you catch your wife in the act of having sex with another person and you DON'T hurt her then you can't possibly love her?
If so, that is one of the most screwed up things I've ever heard someone say. You need some help and quickly.
Gypsy said
I was actually thinking this ...I was actually thinking this is why so many phillipino women marry western men, because they know there husbands won't beat them for disobeying them, much less kill them.
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Tigasin321 said
Stupid guy ...Why go into hiding just because he killed his wife? She probably deserved it anyway and all he had to do was explain that she had been sleeping around and then it would have been justified. Right MightySoloman?
Just call me Tigasin. That's what I'm talking about
rami-leb said
Maybe, Gypsy, they know that ...Maybe, Gypsy, they know that the western men don't really love them, they're just in it for the sex.
After all, if they really 'loved' their wives, they would spend all day hurting them.
This isl ike schoolyard stuff where little 5 year olds show affection for one another by pulling their hair and punching them because they don't possess the emotional maturity to express themselves in any other way.
Gypsy said
Yes of course. You know ...Yes of course. You know obviously my guy doesn't love me, he hasn't beat me in a while.
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dmigtysolomon said
That's what I'm saying, Rami,... ...you caught you wife (you love so much) with another man having sex, you will just shy away, file a divorce and set your love free to marry the other guy.
So if this other guy caught your ex-wife having sex with another man, he would do the same, walk away, file a divorce and set your ex-wife free. If it so happened that this other Guy caught you and your ex-wife having sex again (because you love each other), you expect this guy will just go away and let you continue to have sex.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"