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Qatar ... Take it or leave it ?
Sarkozy was elected as the president of France less than two months ago....but who cares? Well that is not the point. That man said ine one of his famous speech: '' France... wether you like it or you leave it ( La France ou bien vous l aimez ou bien vous la quitez). That was a bit harsh, but - I admit- fair enough.
Could we just say the same thing about Qatar? How many people would immediately rush to the airport if the Emir of this country said that? I imagine ......well I would rather let you try to answer by yourselves. Come on guys SPeak out your hearts :)
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techdoctor said
Fair enough? ...I would leave it.
Frog__ said
can you really .. ...Well, a too simplistic answer for such an awkward problem. Can you really afford that choice ? I wonder if you really had such a choice you would have left a long time before . Am I right ?
Crazy Frog
Gypsy said
Well I'm here aren't I? I ...Well I'm here aren't I? I can leave whenever I want.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Cornellian said
We all chose to be here. ...We all chose to be here.
althaf22 said
its already been said... ...Well its already been said indirectly by urban planning, if i'm not wrong? isn't it.
Expatriate Labour in Qatar not worth it? + pressuring all sorts of burdens towards expatriates... + economic instability surely everyone plans to leave sooner or later depending upon their commitments...
techdoctor said
Hi Buddy ...I have been living here only for the past 6 months. When initially guys told me about Doha I thought it is going to be much worse, but I am really happy on many counts - cleanliness, wide roads, availability of a lot of things, infrastructure etc.
But your question is pretty fundamental. If I believe 'freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose' then maybe I will stay, but I don't. Qatar is great for a few years but beyond that you need to get a sanity check.
Coming to the financial part, I am happy to say that I am here out of my own choice and not due to other constraints. I really came here to do some work as a healthcare consultant and for the experience (I know you guys are laughing at this one). If I can make a change here, I can make a change anywhere in the world! - that's the flip side of things as I see it. Lots of Qataris are very receptive and hard-working. I see bums everywhere in the world. Qatar is no exception.
The good part is, Qatar is actually changing. In the years to come I believe this question would have very little meaning.
diamond said
Thankfully HH the Emir would ...Thankfully HH the Emir would never say that to his people. He does try to make his people happy. It works pretty well...after all, you can make some of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time.
_______________________________________________________
Love is the answer...
Frog__ said
Cleaniness ? ...Man? it's just amazing. I see that you have never visited places such as Industrial area. Anyway, none deny that Qatari people are very nice and quite helpful ( 80%or maybe more), but that is not the question. Notice please guys that Qatari people are becoming a sorta minority within their own country. This is in part what causes some of their agressive attitude towards expatriates. The factis that we are living in a country that has lost lot of his identity because of such an incredible mixture between nationalities and races. We have to co-work ,co-live sometimes with variety of people from so many places around the world. So, when I am talking about Qatar, I'm not necessarily talking about Qataris, just because I have few contact with them . I would rather talk about Egyptians, Syrians, nepali, Indians. etc... . The mixture is not really that colourful. Many communication problems hinder the good function of social or profeesional life. Qatar prefer to bring people with almost no educational level to work here and to accept any offers, rather than hiring people of quality. generalising is not my aim, but that's the way it is.
Crazy Frog
Frog__ said
althaf22 right . ...Right dude. I heard that they are planning to reduce expat number to 50% by 2025 ??? lol well, I don't see any signs of Qatari people ready to do jobs expat are doing now. Imagine you're driving all along the highway, and you look out of your car window, you see Qatari people working on the road side :D that would differ from Landcruiser:) I know I 'm being cruel, but life is so, especially in Qatar :)
Crazy Frog
diamond said
Becoming a sort of a ...Becoming a sort of a minority?..we have been for years...20% of the current population are Qatari. For me it's a double-edged sword. Very necessary and desired progress at the expense of (some of our) culture.
But I always err on the positive and am thankful that expatriates in all your diversity are here.
______________________________________________________
Love is the answer...
Frog__ said
Culturally Speaking ...Becoming a minority is not measured only by numbers. Sometimes people start becoming a minority politically speaking . Sometimes they are just becoming a sorta invisible withing the same society. As far as Qataris are concerned I guess they are actually becoming a minority on a cultural level. The so called desired economical progress will have a very high social and cultural price.
Crazy Frog
Gypsy said
Qatari's are becoming a ...Qatari's are becoming a minority on the cultural level??? I wouldn't say so at all. If anything the government here is really really promoting (and doing a good job of it to) Qatari culture, as are a number of the expatriates. And the Qatari's defintely have the largest political voice, and in fact the only political voice. So I would say they are a minority in numbers only.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Frog__ said
Gypsy ... cultuer Vs Politics ...Culture has certainly something to do with politics , but being dominating politically does not mean you are prominent culturally speaking. On another hand, I would say ploitics here in Qatar is reduced to a daily form of follow up. External qatari policy is different, but includes a lot of show-up participations that have really no use. Qatari people have actually no choice, their willing to change things is not enough for facing such a huge number of expatriates. Before thinking about reducing the number of the latters, they'd rather think about preparing a new generation of qataris ready to work 8 hours a day:) ..... Education would be the key word, but when you visit the University here and ask about PhD section, they would tell you : We have none ???? incredible, isn't it ? Progress is a process that needs many many sacrifices :)
Crazy Frog
Gypsy said
Once again, there's lots of ...Once again, there's lots of culture here, unfortunatly Qataris are very private about their culture so you have to go and look for it sometimes (although by look I mean go down to the Corniche and see that big Islamic Art Museum they are building). As for a PhD program, most of the Univerisites are only a couple of years old, they aren't established enough to offer PhD programs, but it is in their long term plans.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
techdoctor said
Hi Crazy Frog ...I have been to the Industrial area. I have also been to similar industrial areas in India and China. By and large I feel Qatar is cleaner than these places - and these countries are making amazing progress. As a doctor I have heard many people say that their asthma has grossly reduced or even totally vanished after coming here.
I think your primary question is a little rhetorical in nature as in such a case the obvious answer would be to go home. You don't want to become a prisoner, socio-political or not.
JJ864 said
Leave it ...All i will say is u better get ur exit permit ready ASAP if u want to leave all of a sudden!!!
JJ
Frog__ said
Too much privacy ...I do agree with you on one point: Qatari people are too invisible in their own country. I know the weather also contributes to such a thing, but I feel oppressed by a society where people do meet mainly in supermarkets. Concerning Universities, I think sincerely that they have the ability to establish PhD programs in all domains, but maybe this is not really their priority. Anyway, a rich country as Qatar cannot afford not having post graduate educational prog . My question is certainly a sorta rethorical one, but the real question is why people feel so bad in this part of the world that everything turns to be temporary. Your car is a company car, your appartment is not really yours. you miss that feeling of bossession, you just feel yourself like u're just passing by. I guess this is a real problem not to have people willing to settle down and create homes and families. The so called progress so eagerly wanted needs people who are actually well established and feeling like home .
Crazy Frog
Gypsy said
Since I work closely with ...Since I work closely with the university's I can assure you that at this moment they are in no position to start offering PhD programs. Actually coming here as a Teachers Aid is part of the PhD programs offered at their main campuses.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Frog__ said
The real things ...I hope Qatari people would stop their constant show on Media to start the real things. Progress is not having big buildings and two giant swords. Progress is usually based on human resourses. on other words , education should be given priority over the other things. the case of Phd prog is one example among many others. I was driving today and I was at the same time listening to a Radio prog. That was a game. people phone to answer some questions. Imagine that almost ten people called to answer the same thing. This answer was wrong and the speaker repeated all along the prog that this answer was wrong . lol..... Maybe |I'm being harsh, but I feel sorry for a country that I really like. Focus should be on the real things of life. Landcruisers driven by empty heads are more dangerous than bombs .
Crazy Frog
diamond said
I think your knowledge of ...I think your knowledge of Qatar is really quite limited. Education is a huge priority here now. The Independent School System (SEC), Qatar Foundation, the development of Qatar University...other areas too like the emancipation of women.
And you may meet people mainly in supermarkets but don't presume that this applies to all Qataris. I don't spend much time myself in supermarkets and I certainly don't arrange to meet my friends there!
Oh, and as far as radio shows go...tune in to 104.8 channel 4 fm Dubai about 7am every morning and you can hear people from all corners of the world make absolute fools of themselves attempting to answer questions about the easiest of trivia.
No need to feel sorry for us. We rock!
And we don't generally need to leave our country to try our luck elsewhere as I'm guessing you have. We rather stay in our own country to help it develop and improve.
Life on the whole works well for us and I think too the majority of expatriates on some level or there wouldn't be 800 000+ choosing to live here.
_______________________________________________________
Love is the answer...
knoxcollege said
Lucky People ...Honestly Qataris are very very lucky. They can easily get loans from the banks. And the loans mostly get written off. Their education is paid. They get jobs after coming out of high school. They are easily promoted to the ranks of managers and incharges. They get good salaries. They make a lot of money by renting out their homes. They can bring in an army of labourers, workers and maids. They can sponsor anyone.
They can switch jobs. They all get jobs in the public sector except for a few who have their own companies.
Kindly tell me I am wrong.
Thank you Qatar.
Gypsy said
You seem obsessed with the ...You seem obsessed with the PhD program Frog. I've already tried to explain that establishing a PhD program is part of the long term plans for all the University's here (I believe Qatar University already offers them) but that most of the Uni's are less then 2 years old, and it's simply not feasible right now to establish a PhD program. This requires more staff, space, resources, when these uni's are still trying to establish their bachelors programs. I don't think theres a university in history that established a PhD program 2 years after opening.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Frog__ said
And we don't generally need ...And we don't generally need to leave our country to try our luck elsewhere as I'm guessing you have..... You don't need to be agressive I guess. I never said I needed to leave my country :) but I need to find answers to some questions about the Arab world, and I think I have found some here. I know now why the Arab world has failed to progress. Maybe EDucation is exposed on media as the priority, but what is actually on the ground is completely different. These are not personal points of view, and this is not a private diary that I am trying to write on here. You persist on talking about Choice :) I don't think I would surprise you by saying that the majority of those so called 800 000 expatriates did not really have a choice . That was the point from the beginning : DO people here have the choice ? I doubt it. Anyway, you seem so arrogant to see the truth about this country. You just had the same reaction as those landcruiser drivers when they start getting nervous because they would like to overpass all cars on their way :) easy easy .... the Land belongs to those who deserve it :)
Crazy Frog
Frog__ said
not at all ...Completely true ....on the other hands this army of workers and laborers are paying a high price so that the minority of Qataris could live in such a luxurious way. They have neither the right to switch jobs nor the right to get better salaries. You will probably come across a statement while reading magazines or newsopapers. '' Only for Qataris'' . The piublic sector as well as some private companies are advertising positioons, but specifying that they are only for Qataris. Is that fair ?
Crazy Frog
Frog__ said
I'd prefer ...I would prefer the word '' interested'' rather than obssessed :)
Crazy Frog
diamond said
LOL...don't be ridiculous, I ...LOL...don't be ridiculous, I don't think anyone had a gun put to their head to get on a plane and come here. Each and everyone of the expatriates here made the CHOICE to come here for their own reasons.
And I'm not arrogant as you said. This is my land, my blood , my heart. I have seen this land grow over my lifetime. I am eminently qualified to comment on it...and I most certainly will defend it when it is being unfairly criticised.
I am one of the first to acknowledge the points of improvement that Qatar need to work on but sweeping statements and generalisations about this country have never sat well with me.
_______________________________________________________
Love is the answer...
Frog__ said
Choice?? ...Sorry, but Choice is the last thing you can talk about here in Qatar. Expatriates have almost no choice all the time. The so called gun you talked about is actually poverty, political oppression and weather catastrophies. People are coming here because they have to earn their living. You may say Qatar is attracting those expatriates because of its richness, but does it really have any merits for that ? Is it a real economical developement? As long as I know, no production is practiced on here. I have usually said : Whenever you see smoke coming here from a building, this would be certainly a fire not by any chance a factory or a firm :) DEpending on oil and Gaz production will never insure independence for this country. You have the right to defend your culture and your country, but you also have to be objective and open your eyes and mind . Peace :)
Crazy Frog
bajesus said
Frog ...No one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to stay here. It says in your profile that you're from Morocco...I wonder if they would let you get away saying things about your country the way you do about Qatar (and you got away with it so far- see noone is pointing a gun to your head!) besides, in just a few years my country has achieved what any other country in the world, not just Arab countries, could only dream of. We're moving in the right path and our country is by no means perfect but it's a work in progress and progress generally takes time to be achieved!
You wanna talk about poverty? "Almost one in every four people living in rural areas in Morocco is poor, compared to one in ten in urban areas (World Bank, 2004)"
you wanna talk about political oppression? "On May 1 2007 demonstrators, notably in Agadir and Ksar el Kebir in Morocco , were arrested, tortured, charged and sentenced to long prison terms (two and three years) for having chanted slogans “damaging the sacred values of the Kingdom”, which constitutes a patent violation to the right of free opinion and expression."
You wanna talk about weather catstrophies? HAAAAAAAHHH dont even get me started on that one.....actually here's one:
"Sept.13 - The bad weather that engulfed on Thursday the northern province of Chefchaouen caused the death of two people, including a little girl, civil protection services reported. A 24-year-old teacher was hit by thunder while a little girl was swept by floods following the torrential rains that hit the region, according to the same source. The neighboring regions of Tetuan and M'diq-Fnideq were also hit by heavy rainfalls and storms, which caused damage to old houses and disturbed road traffic."
It seems to me that you need to clean up your own backyard before you lecture us on how to clean ours.
Gypsy said
I don't understand your ...I don't understand your position Frog, every single person who came to Qatar came here by choice, even the poorest labourer (with the exception of those people who are here as part of human trafficking/slavery, which there are some, as there are everywhere else in the region).
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Frog__ said
lol ...Man you have rushed into a personal attack with no apparent reason LOl. Private investigations :D well did I ever say that My country is great and has no problems ? You should know that I am an Arab too and I have similar feeling of belonging to both countries. So don't start quoting newspapers about events that occur all over the world. One other thing, try to read first what I wrote before replying:) I talked about Weather catastrophies referring to people coming from countries because of such a reason :) I never pretend to have a clean backyard , and I have the right to talk about Qatar or any other country as long as I m free. This is an opinion about a particular state, so wether you accept it or not that's your own problem. Never said Qatar is the worst place on the world,but lots of things have to change so that this country could really pretend to be on the right path. I do actually appreciate Qatari people. Honestly speaking, I have never been harmed by anyone of them, but I can see clearly that there are serious social problems around.
Comparaisons with Morocco or any other countries would not work , because Every country has its own characteristics . Qatar is a small country with a particular weather and a particular mixed population. Politically speaking, Morocco has gone through so many change, and things are improving remarkably. Qatar has long to learn from Morocco on that level, but it should start by abolishing slavery laws first. I hope you are not waiting for USA to teach you that again :D
Crazy Frog
Frog__ said
Human traffic ...I don't see what u mean by '' region'', but I guess you're talking about Gulf region. Well, I refereed implicitly to that phenomena : Human Traffic . In additon to that, the constatnt hunulation of workers: Publishing their pictures like murderers on newspapers when they are leaving once for all or for vacation. Forcing people to work for miserable salaries and not even giving them the choice or the possibility to change positions / companies. I do agree on one point, Qatar is actually experiencing a great change, but I just wonder if that so-called change or what you eagerly called progress is not a shallow one. I hope the new prime minister will succeed to impose his point of view and alert those slavery laws like sponsorship. By the way, I have a great esteem for that man :)
Crazy Frog
CharanSanitwong said
Frog has a big problem. He ...Frog has a big problem. He can not obtain his NOC from his employer. He got a job that pays 5 times his current salary but he can not move (:
Frog__ said
Charan hello ...hello char , where have you been lately ? sailing on your high speed boat or just day dreaming as usual. Actually this is far from being a personal problem, this a social dielema :)
What a shame I saw two thai fighters losing their games ( Kick Boxing) against two Americans ... in thailand :D
Crazy Frog
CharanSanitwong said
Frog - Actuaaly i was ...Frog - Actuaaly i was driving my Aston Matin to Sea line with my 2 bueautyful G/F and asked my helper to bring the boat there for a noght out for 3 of us.
One time world campion of the Kick Boxing was an american. I didn't know you like kick boxing.
Frog__ said
Helpers ? ...hehehe you start to become like Qataris with a luxury boat and many many helpers :D
Crazy Frog
CharanSanitwong said
Frog - That is called ...Frog - That is called Qatarirization. Want to be the next one:)
Frog__ said
Need ...Need My NOC first LOL
Crazy Frog
Gumby said
Hmmmmm, taking it and then ...Hmmmmm, taking it and then leaving it, isn't that what everyone is doing? As Qatar, for at least the next 20 years, lacks the human resources (note I didn't say the hr potential) for their own development they are using expatriates, and we are using them for our own purposes, be it financial or resume padding. The difference being that Qatar lacks the ability to function without expatriates, whereas the expatriates are here by choice. For Qatar the expatriates are a necessity, they have no choice, whereas for the expatriates Qatar is a choice.