Who Speaks For Muslims?

Yes by allowing people to move to the country which suits their ideals, values, morals, and opinions on what a citzens rights should be and how the country is run. And respecting each and every country who does not plan to harm any other country and their citizens without all the superiority complexes that believe one system is better than the other in politics and warfare.  

And oh yeah to get rid of the current monetary system because it only creates injustice, greed and poverty. As well as opening the door for free travel and citizenship all over the world to those who choose to adhere to their chosen countries policies.

thanks for sharing PM, i would have loved to go to this..it sounds very interesting....yes pls share the info on the book your reading...

 
Interesting point Heishi, I am curious as to where you gathered this information from?

On a side note, when I first saw Independence Day in the theaters in the USA, the audience cheered and clapped when The White House was blown up. Does mean they were all anti american? 

tra la la

country, who will opose any change from their way of life, In UK, its called the BNP.
However, please dont judge us all by these few Morons !!

You said above that.." I live in britain and I feel more than comfortable living here despite some of the racism I receive. However, it is posts like yours that remind me that a great many people in this country truly do not like the fact that muslims are here and stand out in the practice of our faith or cultural prejudices some have inherited."

I take this to mean that SOME people opose the practice of Islam in UK, but doesnt Saudi forbid the practice of ANY religion other than Islam. That seems that Saudi wants the freedom to practice its faith in other countries, but, hypocritically, doesnt want any other religions in their homeland ??

Here in Bahrain, at least they allow ( and i quote from my residents guide here) Christian, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddism and Parseeism (?)

There is no trouble or violence between all these different faiths and beliefs, in fact, the only trouble is between Sunni and Shia factions !

I guess what im trying to say with this rambling is that, if you want to live in other countries, and practise your own faith, then you have to allow it in your homeland for others as well.

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some people now, for my comments. I mean , after all, im just a non believer !! What do i know ?

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T.T.F.N.

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With all due respect PM, polls like this are  meaningless. How is getting a sample that is only 0.005% of the population (Assuming that there are 1 Billion Muslims out there) be considered seriously?

And if it is taken seriosuly, why aren't other polls like the one by the BBC where 10% of the Muslims polled believe that Sucide attacks against civilians are justified taken as serious?

"here are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Actions speak louder than polls. 

I was in a theater in Canada and saw Qatar portrayed as a backwards hovel full of goats and huts.  I also saw Iraq portrayed as a lucious jungle, people cheer when a bunch of Arabs were cut down, etc etc. 

I also remember when some Christian fundamentalists boycotted the movie Dogma and had it pulled from theaters across the States.  I remember cases of abortion doctors, homosexuals, and prostitutes all being murdered in the name of Jesus. 

I remember people crying in North America and calling Timothy McVeigh a martyr when he was executed, despite the fact that he blew up a day care. 

I remember Ruby Ridge and Waco. 

Fundamentalists scare me no matter what religion they use as their excuse.  They have a wonderful way of making a minority look like the overwhelming majority.  

"I am not a pretty girl, that is not what I do, I ain't no damsel in distress and I don't need to be rescued. So put me down punk, I'm not a maiden fair, maybe there's a kitten stuck up a tree somewhere." Ani Difranco

Quite interesting posts :)

PM,

Your title / question is a bit irrelevant , isn't it ? Islam is a faith , a relegion and neither a state nor a nation trying to find a spokeman :) Such a question is just misleading.

Btw , Your response to Heishi is really disappointing. Maybe you just don't have enough time to read his post and u prefer to dismiss it all :) I expect a more intelligent reply from you. Habibah's post was really interesting as an answer :)

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

lol. I promise I'll do it but for other reasons :)  

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

First of all Frog..

Please do not try insulting pm by way of me.. or causing her to ill feelings in her heart.. by saying that my reply was better than anothers. All the replies on this website is based on a persons own information and opinion of what is Islam.  And this is something from Shaytaan to say such things to another muslim. Even if it did not cause enmity in the heart.

I take this to mean that SOME people opose the practice of Islam in UK, but doesnt Saudi forbid the practice of ANY religion other than Islam. That seems that Saudi wants the freedom to practice its faith in other countries, but, hypocritically, doesnt want any other religions in their homeland ??

I think all british oppose in one way or the other some practices of Islam.. although not because they are neccessarily against the religion but because it is different to their own way of life which they feel is superior, freer and better devised.  They do not for example understand why muslims do not touch or have dogs in the house.  And tend to find such things odd.. As I was explaining to one lady that we do not allow dogs in our religion. Her reply was that dogs are such a great learning tool for children and she personally believes that every child should have the benefit of such a loyal companion. However, what I didn't say to her was that I personally saw it as inhumane to keep a dog in a small house and out of his natural way of life. They may be trained to enjoy life with humans but that is not necessarily where they would be happiest. Where as I believe they can be guard dogs to protect a large territory. And we all know how dogs are naturally protective. A bit like a man who feels the need to take care of his flock and provide for him.. It is in his natural nature (which is common for most men that is). So such trivial matters and differences of opinion are found odd.. by those who don't understand the reasons behind them!  

And so I feel in this way.. that the british focus on little issues of muslims without trying to understand the reasons behind such actions, opinions and way of life.  Subconciously, It is different from theirs and people become naturally accusatory and defensive because it means that there is a chance or belief their chosen way of life could be wrong. (I am not generalizing all people like this... but only sharing an example of a few)

The point is that people need to understand the history and mentality behind a persons action before they pass judgement on the situation.

Which is why I found it very interesting that you compared the situation in Saudi arabia to the one in the UK. The fundamentals and facts are entirely different in both situations.

First of all, the Uk asked for the pakistanis to come here. They did not ask them to change their religion.. And they did promise them tolerance in their religion and way of life. They also gave them citizenship and equal rights with all other born british. Allowed them to build mosques, business empires, where national clothing, and mix with those who they choose and feel comfortable with. The goverment allowed british muslims to marry people from their home countries and allow the spouses to apply for citizenship. I have noticed from a few of your posts that you would not neccessarily mix with a different football fan club for fear of prejudice and abuse ... and that was the same case with the pakistanis who came to britain to work in factories and were considered beneath the working class of the time because of the class system inherit within english culture.

Part of the law here in britain and democratic right is that the peoples opinions are valued and if enough of the citizens agree on an issue then that vote should be counted.  My feeling from your post is that the british did not realize that muslims would reject your way as inferior when they got here and of course assume that all people of the world should vote and  unconditionally agree with the opinions and way of life of White English/europeans which is in fact a very unconstitutional and reeks of superiority complexes. 

Do you not agree that a great many educated white women and men have converted to Islam and adopted some of the muslim cultures. A choice and right that Britain has given them. And are these converts any less english or british because they have chosen Islam as their religion?? If they take off the hijab and beard then would that make them more english because they actually look the part?

Muslims in this country, like bahrain do believe in the right for people to worship their religion. However, places like saudi have made it quite clear from the start that a person who comes to saudi will have limited religious rights, will not be able to become a citizen, and will have to go back home once they hit retirement.  They did not give any double standards with these promises nor did they decieve the people coming to saudi that it would be a place where one would be of equal status and rights with the citizens of the country.  This is a far cry from the historical and current situation in britain where a class of beliefs and values is causing right hand movements such as the BNP who feel immigration is the enemy and the british have lost all nationalism.  As I have said in another post, and yet to find the proof for it, that the majority of English do not agree with the immigration policies of the goverment. And would not make friends or have a spouse of an asian background. (which is for a variety of reasons).

And I suppose this brings me back to the social disease within the british culture. In that they find it difficult to speak up for themselves for fear of offending others! Or for whatever social reason they may have. Perhaps for these social and cultural reasons they were not honest about the racism against non whites in britain during the 1960's when masses of mirpuris came to work in factories and indian doctors were hired to work in the NHS.

For those who deny racism has ever existed in Britain during this time would be outright liars. As my mother in law never taught my husband Urdu because she feared it would offend the english. She wore western clothing because the english gossiped about those who wore traditional dress. And she stopped cooking with indian spices because some other housewives would make fun of the curry smell all over the person after cooking and in the neighborhood.. calling them dirty and unclean. (which I found odd because the majority of houses in britain didn't even have inside baths and toilets during this time.) In fact this may be the reason we have sitcoms making fun of those indians trying to be like the english in every way.. even though it was not natural for them.. We call them coconuts!  I think it would be very narrow to think that this was a result of them loving everything english. And my guess would be that they found it hard to be themselves and fit into the culture and biases of your people and therefore had to pretend to be something they were not. Perhaps thinking that this was the way to survive and enrich themselves in material goods. (an idea that also came from colonialism was that the british are a superior race) and the countless times pakistanis have called my husband blessed for having a wife with blue eyes and white skin has caused me to realize this fact. Especially when asians are some of the most beautiful women on earth.

So st. paul the fundamentals are very different in both situations. there is whole load of reasons. And the ones I have mentioned are not even skimming the surface of each topic. It is also not the least beneficial in pointing fingers at each other and argueing over the issues. And no one is defending actions that are wrong by the muslims. As the point is to first find out the root causes and then confront the differences between both cultures head on so that people can have unity and UNDERSTANDING between each other.

And I believe that it is also upon the muslims who have chosen to live in foreign countries to show respect and try to understand their hosts. Rather than being so insular and expecting what is not rightfully theirs. We as a people, need to all let go of our biases and past experiences so we can make way for a brighter future. And the first step to getting rid of these biases is by opening our minds and realizing the reasons behind them and how our past experiences have affected our way of thinking and actions. And also having a desire to learn about the dynamics of other cultures and people without compromising our own personal beliefs.

oh I missed this discussion...joining soon 

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Blessed are the geeks, for they shall Internet the earth!

He was a really dynamic speaker and very funny, don't you think? 

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I also make it a point to catch the Doha Debates. I have to say that in terms of easy access  to interesting intellectual activities, you can't beat Qatar

There are places that may have more going on, but the diversity here and the ease of attending these events makes it all worthwhile.

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If you don't know how to say it in proper English try http://www.lingo2wor... You, too, can now be literate with just the click of a button!

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Samawy.. I completely disagree that the Quran is only for our own minds to comprehend.  As I would not be muslim today if it wasn't for reading the Quran and hadeeth!

Heishi you make some excellent points. In fact these very same points are what salafi scholars of Saudi, the muftis, and people like myself have been fighting with the so called "learned" muslims for many years.

In your post above you mentioned that muslims have NOT spoke out against the terrorist Attacks. Actually a group of muslims knew about this mentality long before the west acknowledged it and have been speaking out about such atrocities and frame of minds. Furthermore I have personally known many callers in the west who were interviewed on the bbc however when they aired the show they only showed bung bung ding dings. I.E. those from pakistan or those who will show Islam in a bad light!

You are right about the muslims. But that really doesn't have anything to do with Islam. They are uneducated! POINT BLANK! We have everyone and their momma interpreting what they and their countryman think is Islam. So many sects and different beliefs is confusing. Especially when it is topped off with illiteracy, ignorance and other things.  Please remember and look at the backgrounds and social situations of the muslims in europe!

So while I did mention in many posts that part of it is due to racism on Europes part.. I also(very vaguely) mentioned that a huge part of it is the lack of understanding of Islam and leaving part of the knowledge.

We have a hadeeth that says that in every generation the people lose a part of knowledge. I.E. they forget a part of the knowledge and fail to act upon it although it is in plain sight and they have no excuse to ere.

As for the quran and hadeeth you you have mentioned. You are right alot of muslims do take it to mean just that. Mainly because they listen to some scholar who has some political agenda and wharps and twists it to suit his goal. The majority of muslims take what many scholars (without looking at the condition of the person) at face value and rarely look into such things themselves. They easily are turned off by those who can and do produce evidence (baseerah) to show the true Islam as a result of their blind following. (Taqleed).

However, if one were to look deeper at these Islamic texts then we would see they came with a timeline! A timeline that can only be interpreted with hadeeth and how the sahaba and tabi'een have interpreted these verses.

Second of all, some of the hadeeth that has been mentioned are considered da'eef at the time of putting them down on paper. I.E. they do not have a valid or strong chain of narrators (isnaad).  And it is a reminder how anything from man can be wharped, changed and made to suit the ideas and opinions of man of that time. Hence, the same reason that muslims do not believe in the Bible because they believe it to be changed and added too.. and taken away from over the years.  

As for those hadith which are strong then I would say that your missing a big part of the whole picture. For instance the hadith about women (I don't know the strength) but if it is strong.. Would be understood by most muslims. I.E. everyone knows the meaing of "beat" in Islam is to tap very lightly without leaving a mark and is only to show disapproval which suits the nature of a women.  After such a tap it is well known that the women is to not be abused again and that it things become out of hand she has plenty of access to help (or should be this way).  Also before this very soft and light tap the man is recommended to abstain from sex to show that he is upset. Which is hard for both the man and women and gives them time to think more clearly about the situation. I.E. to evaluate themselves.

And this is another point.. that Islam has its own definitions for every word in the Quran and hadeeth. The definitions are not neccessarily the Arabic definition. And you will hear many times that this is the "islamic definition" of such and such word.  Because Islam also defines what each of these words, ayahs and interpretations mean. Which I, as a women, find beautiful in Islam.

And this is where I repeat another concept that I personally believe. We cannot just look at Verse in the Quran and think we know what it says. We must first aqcuire knowledge with ikhlas (sincerety) so that we may truly learn what this religion says and if it holds any truth in it.  "Whoever tries to aqcuire all of the knowledge at once will also leave all of the knowledge at once."

1.) Fard al-Ain knowledge-  This is obligatory and compulsory for every single muslim to know whether male or female- no one is exempt from this type of knowledge

a.) Tawheed (You have to know Allah in order to worship him solely without any partner)

b.) salah (and how to pray as the Prophet prayed which can only be found in hadeeth I might add) So how people learn to pray who don't believe in hadeeth is beyond me!!

c.) Zakat 

d.) Saum- fasting in  Ramadan and the ettiquette of fasting

e.) Hajj

f.) Issues about purity. he does everything he can to know what Allah has made obligatory on him/her.

2.) Fard al kifaayah -  That is knowledge that if a few muslims take care of then the responsibility falls off the people. And this is understanding the opinions(khilaf) of the scholars, knowledge of usool ul fiqh, memorises the Quran and hadeeth with understanding,

B.) salah.. is how we must know the Messenger and what he ordered us to do and what he ordered us away from with Wisdom and Honesty granted by Allah.

And this brings me back to the post by many muslims who think non muslims cannot read the Quran.. rather it is upon us, as muslims, to help and explain what the verses and Ayahs mean.  Your differences, ignorance and double standards have become very plain to see by the non muslim world and this in turn IS pushing people away from islam.  And by trying to sugar coat everything that you truly do not understand or have knowledge of is also insulting the intelligence of many westerners.

We should be strong about what we believe(with baseerah) and stick with it! Even if some people go against us!

PM..totally agree with you..he doesnt get it and its wise not to get into arguments with someone who can interpret the quran in a few paragraphs...

Thank you PM and i admire princess Habiba for the vast knowledge on very fine things in Islam. But be careful to choose where to say it. Truth is not pleasing to many of us. Princess, what i meant in my comment is what is well said by you and i quote this paragraph from your post. 'And this is where I repeat another concept that I personally believe. We cannot just look at Verse in the Quran and think we know what it says. We must first aqcuire knowledge with ikhlas (sincerety) so that we may truly learn what this religion says and if it holds any truth in it. "Whoever tries to acquire all of the knowledge at once will also leave all of the knowledge at once." Heishi seems to be having a problem with Muslims and Islam. he does want to know which is which: teachings of Islam and conduct of muslims cant be equated. We are not required to be angels! I must accuse you for drawing your knowledge from websites which are known to criticising Islam only and not from 'scholars' as you mentioned. I was born a Muslim and has a degree in Sharia but i must admit that i don't go on giving definitions of verses or hadith just like that. I know what is at stake, i dont rush. Thank you. ________________ Forgive & Forget.

So Sheikh ‘Ubayd al-Jaabiree continues:

quote:

"Secondly, This person has said, that he calls the tableegh subtlety, I understand from this that he does not criticize their methodology. That he does not criticize their deviance, and that Tawheed is Tawheed Rubobiyyah [only] and this is what they give the meaning of Laa ilaaha Ilallaah as. This is not what the Salaf were upon, rather the Salaf used to warn against innovations, and they uncovered its evils. So how is this call that is Subtle?  The Tableeghis and other than them, if the true methodology is not shown and the futile methodologies are not uncovered then they will not disagree and warn against (him). This is the politics of getting closer (not clear) and this is what they want. So it upon this brother to call openly/sincerely to the truth. It is upon him to clarify the meaning of Laa ilaaha Ilallaah, as the Book and the Sunnah came with and what the salafus saalih were upon, and it is upon him to show what differs from that amongst the false interpretations. This if he is a caller to the Sunnah. This is the second point…”

What great names and quotes did you post. People of integrity, piety and knowledge who sacrificed their lives and did great things behing the bars. 

God Bless us all. I am out. 

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Forgive & Forget.

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what happened with heishi posts??? all  gone by the wind???

Everybody is right Everybody is wrong, it depend where we stand.

No. If you look at all her messages the entire texts were removed. What happened?