So, many people talk about what they see as unfair treatment of workers.
How they are paid so little, often not on time, living conditions, segregation etc.
Here I am wondering...those very people who complain, are they not also the ones contributing to the possibility of this unfair treatment?
Those people who complain about this, are they not working in Qatar and contributing to the welfare of Qatar?
They working for national and international companies who , in the end, serve the government and people of Qatar...and the government and people of Qatar are the ones who are making the rules...for all expats and citizens...
So, the next time you complain, maybe you want to ponder all this a little...as I think you, I and everybody else is as guilty as the next person.
The only way to make a difference, for yourself and peace of mind that is, do not help the system....and that means say "No thank you" to your tax free salary.
I will be happy to lend you my old Geoffrey Boycott signed cod piece with fur lined inside.
Coming your way...
Sorry chaps not a chance he will bel responding. They never do. LOL.
I will dig out my old ice hockey protective gear for the event.
I agree timebandit. Mike has a real chip on his shoulder and needs to work out some rage issues, and Olympics would benefit from having to put up or shut up. Would be a great idea for them to meet and resolve their differences in person.
Olympics has made the offer, so will Mike accept?
I am happy to officiate with you.
timebandit--I am happy to meet any and all in a public space at a time that fits my schedule. But most prefer to attack me and make racist comments by hiding on anonymous forum. This is their right.
I think it's time you lot went for a coffee. And I want to be there and film it ;)
I thought Mike Shamrock was leaving the thread as per his posts earlier above. Oh well, more lies. I suppose I should have known better than this. LOL.
Yes very said about Venezula. It should look to Qatar as shining example of how to fight corruption, support human rights, and manage oil wealth well. But maybe they are like Mike and not open to the good example of an Arab nation. I pray this is not the case.
Bachus, it's very simple.
If anything is considered disrespectful then should be "western" because according with this kiddo, most westerners have some sort of attitude in which they are trying to come and teach easterners on how to behave and all sorts of bla, bla, bla. He generalizes and spits on "different" cultures and then calls them "racists".
Again, if anyone can prove I am despising any culture, nationality or religion then be my guest and prove it by quoting any of my previous posts.
On my tagline yes, I am very proud of who I am, my culture and what represents: tolerance to diversity and equal rights even when we are facing tough times in which democracy and essential rights are threatened by our current regime. Is there something wrong with that? Does that mean that putting a bumper sticker in my car with a Venezuelan flag should be considered an insult to others? Sorry but most people have been doing this for decades, I don't see why I shouldn't.
To each its own brother.
Wow Mike! Take it easy chief. No need to go into a tirade in response to my post and get vicious--I can see now how your disagreement with Olympics escalated.
We're all entitled to our opinion on a forum like this and to have it questioned by others.
According to Mike it is. And he is proud of it. I would not normally see Venezula as Western, but I say it is his choice of what culture he considers himself. And that is fine with me. Unlike him I am not here to to "educate" people about their own culture and tell them that they are one culture or another.
Is a Venezuelan considered Westerner? Yes or No?
Bachus--this is what happens when you engage with this "superior" man. Ask him a question and he responds with insults.
Yes, I have asked him to explain his old "westerner and proud" tagline many times but no answer. I agree with your point about a passport is paper and it does not define culture. The Palestinian example is excellent and there are many more such as the Tibetans who use Chinese passports or the many Lebanese that travel under Canadian passports. But for him it does and his way is to be followed by all or we are hypocrites and liars in his view. What a strategy he has: call names, make false statements and hope it distracts from his own insults and weak claims. This is too bad but I suppose the so-called "superior" man as himself need not respond to questions of the Arabs and Africans.
Bachus, if you follow correctly, this nonsense flame war was between two QL participants. I am calling him an ignorant, hypocrite, racist and last but not least, a LIAR (for putting words in my mouth) and this has nothing to do with any other members or nationalities in this great forum.
If you want to make a big fuzz about my personal comment against this member and extrapolate it towards other Arabs, I could only say that is just a product of your own imagination and has absolutely nothing to do with my opinions expressed in this forum.
You are more than welcome to review my previous comments and you will notice that I have never insulted any cultures or nationalities.
Now go and see 2012's comments where he deliberately calls everyone "racist" and then puts anything that comes from a westerner as a "bad thing" you now tell me, who's the racist here?
In a few words: I don't owe any explanations, I hope that's fair enough to you.
For once, I agree (a little bit) with Olympics. A government document such as a passport does to define a person's culture or national allegiance. How many Palestinians have passports from Lebanon, Syria or Canada? What would Mike call them for considering themselves Palestinian?
I also think the question raised about Mike's old tagline of "westerner and proud" is a fair one. As I posted above, I am curious as to the answer. We all know what Olympics is proud of . . .
Mike--I do not spit on any nation or westerners. I lived in West many years, and I have said many times I like many parts of West. I spit on racists like you who consider themselves superior for being of the West and come to Qatar to "educate" us who are more civilized than the likes of you. You call Arabs names and insult their culture because it is not as "good" as yours. LOL.
I like my UK passport. My family and I agreed I should keep it. It gives me and my relatives access to all of Europe to live as we please. Why would I give that up to please narrow-minded racists such as yourself who think only whites can be British and Arabs who do not hold Arab country passports are hypocrites for not waving the UK flag? Besides a passport document does not say what culture you are or you hope. To allow a piece of paper to do so is so shallow of you and shows limitations of your heart and mind. I feel so sorry for you that you think in such unenlightened ways.
And you never answered my question. What is it about being "westerner" that makes you proud? What makes your country and culture so superior? I guess you have no answer as always for this.
BTW--Solo hablo un poquito de español. ¿Hablas Árabe? I didn't think so Mr. Superior. ROFL.
PP--Not even worth the time it took to write this sentence.
Thanks Prince Planet, regarding your previous question, things are all messed up in our country. Venezuelans are probably the second largest spanish speaking community in Qatar, 99% of them are working in the oil and gas sector, all thanks to the political segregation promoted by our president.
This may not directly answer your question but just to make the long story short, if you are not with them, that will automatically put you against the system.
This will be my last post dedicated to this kiddo. Eagles don't catch flies.
Olympics, sorry but I tend not to discuss religion or politics, especially with ignorants and with those holding grudge and resentment against other ethnic groups/nationalities.
You suffer from a serious identity crisis. You spit on the westerners, you call yourself Qatari but you walk around with a UK passport... ignorance and hypocrisy at its best.
PP--If Mike is Venezula peasant he would not have the Qatar job in management. I am afraid your buddy is part of what you call the oppressor class. Although it is good example of country when oil wealth is badly managed. Makes Qatar look all the better.
Venezuela? Well that DOES explain why you are in Qatar.
I like your new tagline. Is that your answer to my what are you proud of question? Does this mean that you are no longer proud to be a Westerner? Why ever not?
Racism, noun - I gave you the definition, copied from the dictionary.
Venezuela, south american country. Native language: spanish, not english like you just said.
That's ignorance 101 right there.
I wannabe what. Like you? LOL!
Still can't answer my question I see. Too many of those confusing nouns and adjectives? I can help: 'Westerner' is adjective.
So you are not 2012 Olympics, that's the bottom line hehehehehehe
Nomerci: you know me.
Westerner and proud, oh yeah!
Brit, boots are ok without..especially those, they have fur....you should know what a nice feeling fur gives..:P
I am surprised.. They don't have red soles ... :o)
Mike..is your slogan inspired by the big billboards one ses around Qatar?
Love the picture time bandit.
To Mike: Not to defend Mr. Olympics, but what do you mean by "Westerner and proud" Mike?
I want those boots, they are awesome!
Fascism would imply I support socialism, which I do not. Learn your terms before you misuse them. Perhaps they will cover that in the spring term in school for you. LOL.
Mike--I want to be what? I have British passport via my father, but my mother's family is Qatari. I see myself as citizen of the Arab world with first loyalty to Qatar. No secret. I have spent many years living in West and in Middle East. I speak many languages and mingle with local cultures of both. You cannot say this. You say "westerner and proud" and criticize my country when yours is best know for invasions and propping up zionism. And what could has it got you? US is per capita much poorer than many countries and its economy is mess.
I would rather be a worker in industrial area than migrant illegal mexican worker picking on farms in California. And you must too prefer Qatar to US when salary and lifestyle is good. So why criticize all the time. But you still go on QL to "school" us barbarians. In the end it would be better for you to learn from us.
PP--workers are given appropriate rights. You would give them everything so long as it costs you nothing. If you were real you would leave capitalist Qatar when you finish school and find a country that fits your beliefs. But you won't. LOL.
And then you call others racists?
I'm telling you my point of view and you immediately start saying that this is a "western" behavior. Why don't you start looking your own ass in a mirror before you judge others?
Tell me, do you have a Qatari passport? That will answer the question.
I've known people that were born, raised and lived in this country throughout their entire lives and they would still have to struggle each time they need to switch jobs, going here and there, dealing with all the bureaucracy. You now go and ask them if that makes them feel this is indeed their country.
Mike--how is it not? Or is it your view that as Westerner you have right to claim what does and does not belong to others? That is Western way is it not?
PP--Such things are bd for management. And Qatar is management. Nothing to do with civilized. :-)
Wake up and smell the coffee... this is NOT your country!
Thanks for putting a smile on my face right before bedtime.
Mike--no problem with Westerners. I lived in West for years. Liked some parts very well, didn't like other parts, but that is another topic. I just don't like hypocrites who come to my country and insist their way is the "civilized" way and that I should be like them or else I am a barbarian. And that they are posting only to "educate" me. And there are a lot of Westerners who like to do this on QL.
No worries, you are not the only one
Sorry Mike, I don't get you :/
No? You are a decent person... well I wish I could say the same on that other thread :(
Mike , I will not call you or anybody else evil...all I wanted to do is to make people look at things from a different angle.
See, we all do what we feel we need to do , to the best we can at the given time..nothing wrong with that.
But let us look at things in different ways.
I know nomerci, my comment already had an answer so you can call me evil for that :) it is just a way of saying that we all live in a world full of hypocrisy.
Mike, yes of course.And probably even more so.
2012 Olympics, what's your problem with the westerners? Are you now telling me that the United Kingdom is located near the west bank?
Nomerci, I guess you're right but if that's the case then we should all be blamed not only in this but also in our own soil, don't you think? :)
olympics, well, I see a lot of non Westerners talking about this issue...for example, family Fridays at malls and other restrictions.
But again, that is really beside the point I was trying to make.
This is not a post meant for bashing the establishment, but for reflecting on ourselves.
Yes, I agree Hemlata.
Yes, maybe no merci, but from my experience on QL it is the Westerners that do almost all of the complaining and condemn us for being barbarians. If they do not like the system, then they should begin by reforming themselves.
You are talking about Qatar?.
Check the condition of workers in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Srilanka etc from where all the labor force comes.
People are paying heavily to get employment in Qatar fully knowing the local conditions, work nature and salary as the conditions in their home country is still worst. It is their choice to come to Qatar and they come with agreed terms then why complaint?
I am sure, majority of work force are very happy here. I see big crowed of labors in and around Mushreib and find them enjoying life.
Westerners need high salaries because Qatar has nothing else to offer! Not even a grown standard of living. It's all fake!
2012, I have to say though, I do not believe that expatriates should be the ones changing things , or giving money to change things...I think that is the government's duty..they set it up, they run the country, they are the ones who ought to set things right.
A little less profit won't put too much of a dent to the coffers, would it?
2012, yes, exactly.
And as I said, I do not exclude me at all. I am as guilty as the next person.
The system is set up and executed in a certain way, and as we contribute to it, to it continuing to exist and , in fact, doing well, we are guilty.
As simple as that, IMHO.
It makes no difference how much money one makes, where one is from, what status one has...WE ALL contribute to it.
That of course does not mean one has to be quiet about what one sees,...but one should be aware of sitting in a glass house.
My post has nothing to do with giving money to make life a little easier for certain people, of course many of us do that...but it is, after all, a drop in the ocean..nothing more.
LIS--Very few people do what you describe, and I say good for them that do if it makes them feel better. BUT it is a drop in the ocean for the most part.
I am just tired of hypocrisy of those persons who complain about worker conditions but depend on their conditions to make good salaries and living. For them everything is government's fault. If all Western expats refused to work in Qatar because of human rights, things would change; if all Western expats volunteered a 10% tax to Qatar to improve worker conditions, things would change. Westerners so often claim the superior morality, then lead by the example I say and do these things. Instead too many just gripe and try and feel superior for it even thought they are just as guilty. Maybe even more guilty cause they claim to know better.
practice what you preach
A flawed POV and I would beg to differ on all counts for my own reasons.
The issue raised is not a rant...it is bringing up the issue 'continuosly' to be heard and actioned ....by terming it as 'rant', you are in effect saying I am not interested in whatever happens to these people and it is getting on my nerves.
It is true that we are part of the system but we cannot be considered as part, not an iota, for the unfair treatment neither are we contributing keeping in view the available redressal avenues and so the only way to address the issue is through forums like this or any other and that too in the capacity of a concerned individual, without any obligation, the obligation rests somewhere else.
That then brings to 'no tax free salary'... any idea should take into consideration its ramifications on the affected audience at large not just myself...you may be paid exorbitantly and so a bit of dent on it wouldnt cause much flutter for you but for some the money earned would be equivalent to your dent... if however, the opinion was limited to 'westerners" may be I would have agreed (though I see LIS, whom I assume is a westerner, taking an exception to that) as they themselves project being unduly paid exorbitantly ....others are not paid exorbitantly.
its all hypocrisy....
Those who have such a big concern about the treatment of workers here have no qualms about wearing those branded dresses made in the sweatshops in Bangladesh, Vietnam and India....
Lis, no, it does not provide with the means to change things, of course not...but all the money spent here, and all the money made from those who get those salaries make it all happen....if we were not here, well, you know the spiel.
And yes, things should be mentioned, and yes, there are many people who try to help out the unfortunate, no question.
BUT, the main point, the point where it all starts is...WE keep it all alive....
Again, I am not judging, all i am saying is we should keep that in mind before the next scathing rant...people in glass houses etc.
constructively! And always practice due courtesy!
what I see as unfair treatment of some people in this country, to say that we contribute by taking a tax free salary is debatable. The tax free salaty I earn does not provide me with enough to help these people out, Qatar's pockets are far deeper than mine :0(
Olympics - And what about these westen expats living their 5 star lives? I believe that some of these people you refer to have given up their spare time and money helping these workers when they joined in with alot of others on QL handing out water, sunglasses, hats and food to these people during the summer months. That is only one of the initiatives i have seen and although it may only make a tiny difference, it did make a difference. Where were you when the westeners were doing this??
Fathimah, I do not want to judge anybody, we all have our reasons for what we do and that should be respected.
All I am saying is, that those who rant about unjust treatment of others etc. are just as guilty of keeping the system alive and well as the next person.
Just something to maybe think about before posting the next "unjust" post...;)
And very well put. My conclusion is that people will ultimately chose the best option for themselves and their loved ones. For example it does pain me to see people discriminated here in Qatar but personally as an individual who was treated with racism in the very country I was born in and in comparison to that receiving so much more better treatment here, I'd of course prefer to stay in Qatar than Sri Lanka!
When it comes to expressing what we see as flaws,injustice etc we'd do that , we may even go that extra mile and help those in need ,but as far as having the choice at "Washing my hands off you" and "saying good bye" goes most people will weigh their pros and cons and realize that whilst there is no perfectly just country for ALL in this world , one will chose to remain where it is best for THEM be it physically or mentally, financially, or emotionally! Does that make us selfish and bad people or just mere mortals?
My point is that WE ALL are compliant in keeping/making the conditions as they are. We all are guilty and have no right to rant.
Only those who have nothing to do with this system are not guilty.
Everybody who lives in and works for a system that is in any way unfair to anybody, is guilty of keeping that system and its conditions alive.
I , you and the next person.
And if you leave, another person will take your place.
Money makes the world go round.
most of them work for the main contractors/consultants... Are they ever bothered as to whether their subcontractors pay salaries of their employees in time? are they bothered about their working conditions? Or are they interested only in making sure that the projects get completed on time
Excellent points no merci and ones I have said many times on QL.
If workers were paid lavish wages and given the 5 star conditions people complain for, then how much more would food, eating out, petrol, clothes and all other things cost? Then people would start complaining about that. The only other choice is to pay professionals less in order to pay workers more. How about that Western expats who complain? Want to hand over 15 percent of your salaries to a tax to provide better conditions and salaries for workers?
These are workers plain and simple and as in all countries they are paid the least that employers can pay them. Just as the people who pick the vegetables in California are paid as cheaply and possible to keep food prices down.
and these workers are the one who built your nice offices. Just wonder, have anyone of them rode on your nice cars?
This is a very good post to reminds all of us. TAke a reflection.